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Sorry. I stopped paying any attention to anything you write a long, long time ago, and I am not going to start now.

Stopped paying attention - see above. I got a reply, a bit harsh, but does that mean I’m not getting a ‘like’ ? For the record, I don’t think it was 3x-times ‘long’ ago.

But, when you tell ‘sea-stories’ without citing the basis for your claims - you are talking ‘tall tales', right? No juice to back up your bar-stool tales?

BTW - any action in Santa Rosa? There the issue of releases, liability, and New Mexico law is spot on point to the case cited. If I were teaching in NM, I would want to know the limits of liability releases in the state and hope that they mirrored Florida.

Don’t let me stop you - let the SB world know what is backing up your ‘sea-stories’ or are they just ‘tall tales’ ?
 
Working in Florida? Borden would be a good read for you. Consulting an attorney knowledgable in the subject matter would be an excellent idea.

I'm reading it now. May be relevant to my decision to become an instructor. Thanks.
 
There are cases where instructors have been held liable for (grossly) negligent behavior that might be similar to a the 'supervision' provided by a DM. Like the DCS in Turnbough v. Ladner, 754 So. 2d 467 - Miss: Supreme Court 1999
Turnbough v. Ladner, 754 So. 2d 467 – CourtListener.com

Here we go, a good case from Mississippi. Good read and instructive.

If the same fact set went to trial in Florida, would the outcome have been different?

What is the core issue at the heart of both cases?
 
I know this is an old thread, but several points have not been made in it.

1. Many of the practices described in this thread are violations of the law, as the first dive shop I worked for discovered before changing its policies. Dive shops get away with it because some people don't know better and because the ones that do know better have decided it is better to live with it than report it to the appropriate authorities. (I am one who never reported those abuses to authorities, even when I confirmed with an expert that they were illegal.)

2, In some cases you hear of and report on threads like this, people are lying. I used to do all my diving on a dive boat whose captain had a regular practice of imploring divers to tip the DMs because "they work for tips." I finally challenged the legality of that in private, and the regular spiel became something along the lines of "the DMs depend on tips for much of their income."

3. The definition of professional for diving differs in large part because professionals are required to carry professional liability insurance. They are required to carry that insurance because of the possibility they might be sued. For that to happen, payment does not have to be involved; you are a professional if you are acting as one. What is involved is an understanding on the part of the plaintiff that he or she could count on the professional to provide some level of service, usually including safety. There is a myth perpetrated in ScubaBoard threads that DMs have no responsibility to be a safety factor when leading dives. That is simply not true. DMs are not expected to pull off miracles, but they are expected to provide a reasonable level of safety; in one famous case, the DM was successfully sued when he refused to share air with an OOA diver who died. In another case, two DMs (and their agency) were successfully sued when they failed to notice that a diver was missing when they called the roll. In that last case, the DMs were not members of the boat crew but were instead unpaid members of the dive club that had chartered the boat. In the discussion threads mentioned above, dive operation owners regular jump in to say that they absolutely demand that their DMs provide a reasonable level of assistance for safety, but those posts are routinely ignored by the posters who say DMs have no responsibility for your safety.

In some cases, there is an understanding that a role needs to be performed by a professional, even if the person in that role is not literally a professional. In a case in the San Diego area about a decade ago, a DM on a boat jumped into the water to help a diver who was having trouble on the surface while trying to get back onto the boat. The DM helped the diver out of his BCD, evidently not realizing that the diver had a weight belt rather than integrated weights. The predictable happened. Although the DM had been certified years before, he was not carrying liability insurance, so he was technically not a professional while acting in a job that required a professional. The DM committed suicide, and the shop went out of business.

I have been warned that if I were to buddy with an insecure diver and say, "I'm an instructor; you can count on me to help with this dive," then I am a professional even though I am not getting paid, and I can be sued. If I do not make that sort of statement, I am most likely free from liability, even if I am a known instructor, although there have been some very troubling cases in that regard of late.
1. What specifically are these illegal practices? If you're talking about allowing a certified DM to direct divers on your boat for for tips only, that's not very different from what uber does - it connects independent contractors with customers.

3. Even your buddy on whose temporary OW card the ink is still wet has a duty of care to you. The difference between him/her and a certified DM is the hypothetical reasonable person against whom their conduct will be measured. An ER nurse who encounters an accident victim while driving down the road, and a teenager with no training under the same circumstances will be judged differently on how they render aid. Having a credential presumes a higher level of performance and a higher duty of care.

During DM training, we were cautioned that, when going on a boat where no one knows you, present the lowest certification you have that will allow you to do what you want to do, and don't tell anyone you're a pro.
 
There is a concern that as a dive pros, we have duty of care with whomever we dive with. If the family feels the dive buddy didn't do enough and hire an attorney, if the attorney is any good, he's going to contact every dive agency to see if that person is a pro.
Actually, if the attorney is any good, he's going to get a list of everyone on the boat, anyone on a boat at the same dive site at the same time, and attempt to name them all as defendants, plus a few John Doe's to be named later, and yes, check the status of all of them with all the agencies.

However, it will probably still be worse for the pro whose status was known beforehand by the victim and/or others on the boat, because that would create an expectation on their part that could be a factor.
 
A DM card is 99% about the chest puffery, 1% about liability coverage, and makes -200% financial sense.
When you're a college student, even after paying the liability insurance premium, it can make diving an affordable hobby. I dove all I could stand for the cost of liability insurance.
 
Hmm was a post deleted? I seem to remember that I was replying to someone.
 
1. What specifically are these illegal practices? If you're talking about allowing a certified DM to direct divers on your boat for for tips only, that's not very different from what uber does - it connects independent contractors with customers.
You must use a different UBER than I do. WHen I contract with UBER, the price for the ride is determined before the ride shows up. An optional tip can be added. The UBER driver is definitely working for pay, not just tips.

This has all been discussed in previous threads over the years, and knowledgeable people have cited applicable law regarding what I believe are officially classified as deck hands.
During DM training, we were cautioned that, when going on a boat where no one knows you, present the lowest certification you have that will allow you to do what you want to do, and don't tell anyone you're a pro.

Actually, if the attorney is any good, he's going to get a list of everyone on the boat, anyone on a boat at the same dive site at the same time, and attempt to name them all as defendants, plus a few John Doe's to be named later, and yes, check the status of all of them with all the agencies.

However, it will probably still be worse for the pro whose status was known beforehand by the victim and/or others on the boat, because that would create an expectation on their part that could be a factor.
I cannot begin to estimate how many, many times I have seen these old myths refuted over the years.
 
You must use a different UBER than I do. WHen I contract with UBER, the price for the ride is determined before the ride shows up. An optional tip can be added. The UBER driver is definitely working for pay, not just tips.

This has all been discussed in previous threads over the years, and knowledgeable people have cited applicable law regarding what I believe are officially classified as deck hands.



I cannot begin to estimate how many, many times I have seen these old myths refuted over the years.
Uber doesn't pay the driver - the driver is an independent contractor - Uber just facilitates the transaction. Note California's efforts to CHANGE some of the applicable law to which you allude with regards to Uber. I notice you didn't actually answer my question regarding what the illegal practices you mention are.

What particular myths?
The myth that if people on the boat know you are a DM or instructor they'll ask you for guidance, follow you around underwater, turn to you first if something is wrong, ask you to buddy with the nervous newbie? I've personally witnessed all those events and if you respond affirmatively (because you're a nice guy) you legally create a duty of care.

I've also known people who were named as defendants because they were on the other boat anchored at the same dive site. There are no myths about how sleazy lawyers can be.
 
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