Do we need instructors?

[Thalassamania]

True but we are supposed to be demilitarizing dive training (not sure why but that's what it says in the agency produced books)

New Science and the NOAA Manual are not military and the Navy Manual, while military, is a great reference. Besides the "military" that the agency produced books refer to is PT.

Thal, you are speaking as a father. Unfortunately most fathers aren't like you any more. They give in over and over again to adolescent tyranny.

I tend to be tougher on family members and such.

 

[leapfrog]

Ok, I'll take a stab at it These would be my definitions, as such are almost certainly wrong

In the context of this topic "Do we need instructors"? :

Instructor: Card-carrying professional scuba instructor. Took the course, got the cert, has the insurance, has the t-shirt, cap and shoulder patch

A person whose job is to teach people a practical skill

Teacher: Someone who has the ability, whether innate or acquired, to communicate new ideas and skills effectively to students. An "instructor" may or may not be a teacher, a teacher may or may not be an instructor.

In education, a teacher is a person who educates others. Teachers may use a lesson plan to facilitate student learning, providing a course of study which covers a standardized curriculum. Other teachers may provide instruction in craftsmanship or vocational training, the Arts, religion or spirituality, civics, community roles, or life skills.Informal learning may be assisted by a teacher occupying a transient or ongoing role, such as a parent or sibling or within a family, or by anyone with knowledge or skills in the wider community setting...

Mentor: I would define a mentor as someone who "takes you under their wing" and teaches you a skill in a non-classroom environment. Could an instructor also be a mentor? Yes! But only if he is "teaching" on his own time, and not as part of a formal class. With scuba, when folks refer to "mentor" they usually just mean a more-experienced dive buddy.

A trusted friend, counselor or teacher, usually a more experienced person. Some professions have "mentoring programs" in which newcomers are paired with more experienced people, who advise them and serve as examples as they advance. Schools sometimes offer mentoring programs to new students, or students having difficulties.

Guru: Guru's of any kind scare me And the flowing robes, wild hair and long beards pose serious entanglement risks underwater

A guru is one who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others. As a principle for the development of consciousness it leads the creation from unreality to reality, from the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge. Other forms of manifestation of this principle also include parents, school teachers ,books and even one's own intellectual discipline. Many Gurus ask for unquestioning obedience... (just take a look around on Scubaboard).

This post and my original one are in no way meant as a "slam" on instructors. Most of the instructors I’ve known were very passionate about what they do, and are good teachers.

. My point is that teachers and instructors are not synonymous. I don't teach anyone unless they want me to. I instruct.

But I do not believe it is absolutely necessary from a safety standpoint to hold an instructor's certification in order to "teach" scuba. I believe many experienced divers who also have an ability to teach would do a wonderful job teaching scuba.

In any other profession such an affirmation would be intolerable. In many countries, acting without qualification is an offence. The reason you can make this statement is that scuba is mainly self regulatory. Can you imagine a world with skydivers taking classes from "amigos"? The FAA would love that. Private pilots without a flight instructor rating teaching other pilots? All very laissez faire. Let's cut out drill instructors from the military too. Just have the last recruit to complete basic training teach the newbies. We could cut out most university professors and school teachers too. Just have each class teach the next one.

Would I consider myself qualified to teach scuba?...A resounding No!...I'll always be a student.

I see.

 

[gcbryan]

A person whose job is to teach people a practical skill


In education, a teacher is a person who educates others. Teachers may use a lesson plan to facilitate student learning, providing a course of study which covers a standardized curriculum. Other teachers may provide instruction in craftsmanship or vocational training, the Arts, religion or spirituality, civics, community roles, or life skills.Informal learning may be assisted by a teacher occupying a transient or ongoing role, such as a parent or sibling or within a family, or by anyone with knowledge or skills in the wider community setting...


A trusted friend, counselor or teacher, usually a more experienced person. Some professions have "mentoring programs" in which newcomers are paired with more experienced people, who advise them and serve as examples as they advance. Schools sometimes offer mentoring programs to new students, or students having difficulties.

A guru is one who is regarded as having great knowledge, wisdom and authority in a certain area, and who uses it to guide others. As a principle for the development of consciousness it leads the creation from unreality to reality, from the darkness of ignorance to the light of knowledge. Other forms of manifestation of this principle also include parents, school teachers ,books and even one's own intellectual discipline. Many Gurus ask for unquestioning obedience... (just take a look around on Scubaboard).



. My point is that teachers and instructors are not synonymous. I don't teach anyone unless they want me to. I instruct.

In any other profession such an affirmation would be intolerable. In many countries, acting without qualification is an offence. The reason you can make this statement is that scuba is mainly self regulatory. Can you imagine a world with skydivers taking classes from "amigos"? The FAA would love that. Private pilots without a flight instructor rating teaching other pilots? All very laissez faire. Let's cut out drill instructors from the military too. Just have the last recruit to complete basic training teach the newbies. We could cut out most university professors and school teachers too. Just have each class teach the next one.

I see.

Aren't flight instructors in the military generally those with the least flight time? It's the same the the instructors that most private pilots get as well. I think you are overstating your case somewhat.

I don't think skydivers need professional instruction. Pilots do since they fly over your house.

 

[OldNSalty]

Aren't flight instructors in the military generally those with the least flight time?

Least flight time then whom? Military flight instructors are seasoned pilots, usually among the best in their group.

 

[captain]

In commercial aviation instructing is used as a means to aquire flight hours and experience in order to move up to higher paying jobs, so basic flight instructors are sometimes the least experienced.

 

[gcbryan]

In commercial aviation instructing is used as a means to aquire flight hours and experience in order to move up to higher paying jobs, so basic flight instructors are sometimes the least experienced.

I thought it was a little like that in the military with the better students from one class being held over to act as instructors for the next class. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I didn't think that the military used it's best and most experienced pilots as flight instructors.

 

[DaleC]

I don't put much stock in the title "Instructor" on its own. I have known too many teachers who got into "education" because they couldn't make it in their profession in the real world. Those who can, do; those who can't, teach. Having said that I have also known some stuffed shirt "mentor" types who are more interested in showing how smart they are than in imparting their wisdom to others.

Not that I am slagging all instructors either. There are many good teachers who really have something to pass on. My favorite instructors are those who teach and mentor with a mix of knowledge and real world experience. We have a good one in our neck of the woods named Manfred. He is a no nonsense instructor but also shows up regularily for fun dives with the locals and probably teaches more in the parking lot than he does in the classroom. I would choose him as a teacher any day.

I've been thinking recently how PADI's conveyor belt approach to "professional dive status" works the same way as academia (Ba, mBa, PhD, professor) and probably harms some divers more than it helps. To become truly competent we need to challenge ourselves with diverse and complex conditions but the quick path to DM and instructor probably has some stuck in an endless rut of 30 minute, 30 foot dives. I know one instructor/trainee who I keep trying to get out for a fun dive but is always "too busy" with teaching. We are already discussing dive complexities beyond him because his head is constantly stuck in OW la la land.

 

[OldNSalty]

In commercial aviation instructing is used as a means to aquire flight hours and experience in order to move up to higher paying jobs, so basic flight instructors are sometimes the least experienced.

That's...crazy

 

[captain]

That's...crazy

But true

 

[DCBC]

If not for the litigious nature of our (US) society would we really "need" instructors?

To answer your question, yes. What you describe is largely how it use to be. Navy divers would leave the service and teach others who were interested in learning, they eventually got together and started an Association (NAUI is one example). Standards were developed and continuity was created.

Like everything man touches, another person comes along and try's to twist a buck out of it. Other organizations came into being, as for-profit corporations and created the dreaded business plan. The motivation was to make money.

So it changed from knowledgeable people who simply loved diving and who wanted to teach others for free (largely undertaken in a Club setting), to for-profit LDSs and training centers who simply wanted to process students.

Given the scenario that you've described, I believe there would be nothing the matter for a knowledgeable person to teach diving (who was not certified to do so). The Instructor's certification today suggests competence, which is sometimes unfounded. The individual is best to put his trust in someone whom s/he believes in, than to leave it up to today's turn-a-buck organizations. All of this presupposes a world different than what it is; one where litigation flourishes. It's also worth mention that many problems could be expected, but this would be at the peril of the student. One which s/he would be aware of and accept.