Do we need to change body recovery methods?

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mikerault

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Unless the drowning victum has breathed compressed air under water dcs should not be an issue
 
sorry I read the article again and I see you are referring to divers.
 
Hi Mike

First of all I applaud your interest in this area and enjoyed your article but the fact of the matter is that the mammalian dive reflex really doesn't have much bearing on scuba divers. Here's why:

The diver is wearing a mask of some sort so the face is covered.

The vasoconstriction that you talk about is already compensated for when the diver begins his descent - this is more water pressure than any diving reflex. Incidently the greatest pressure differential is in the shallow depths (boyles law).

The bradycardia is a result of the vasoconstriction but there is also an increase in blood pressure (not usually a good thing). As soon as the diver begins to swim/work the heart rate is likely to increase again (maybe slower than normal but not really significant taking the BP into account). Also, with the work of diving the capillaries will open up again to supply the muscles.

I think you may be confusing the mammalian dive reflex with cold water immersion/hypothermia. It is due to cold water immersion where you'll see miraculous survival times with the victims. Cold water immersion of course is not a factor for divers as they would (hopefully!) be wearing exposure protection in cold water. The process generally occurs as such:

The victim falls into icy water. If he can survive the first 5 minutes ABOVE the surface he has a good chance - this is where a gasp reflex occurs with potential aspiration of water followed by rapid drowning. The effects of hypothermia don't have a chance to affect the victim and it is a simple drowning. If the victim heads down the hypothermia road BEFORE sinking then the outcome may be very different.

A diver would not be subject to extreme hypothermia before drowning - he'd drown first because he's already under the water.

The science is already out there if you do some digging

BTW - no need to worry about bullet proof undies. Most people don't make a distiction between the 2 processes

mark
 
In my research they indicated that hypothermia may not have as much affect as they first thought. I agree that a properly protected diver may not suffer hypothermia. However, assuming it is a factor and that a possibility of MDR is present wouldn't it make sense to try to do recovery such that the possible damage from DCS doesn't occur? Oh, I did mention both MDR and hypothermia in the article.

Mike
 
mikerault:
In my research they indicated that hypothermia may not have as much affect as they first thought. I agree that a properly protected diver may not suffer hypothermia. However, assuming it is a factor and that a possibility of MDR is present wouldn't it make sense to try to do recovery such that the possible damage from DCS doesn't occur? Oh, I did mention both MDR and hypothermia in the article.

Mike

To the best of my knowledge, in cases where MDR has had any effect on the chance of survival it has involved young children who were subjected to rapid cooling in freezing water. In addition, these victims did not first fall unconscious and then land in the water.... it was the other way around.

I think in order to support your argument you need to be able to cite multiple examples of MDR in adults involving similar critical parameters--time, order of events, temperature (esp accounting for the diving suit) & survival rates from things that make divers drown (ie. first being in the water and then falling unconscious).

I think you're article is thought provoking and interesting but I have to be honest. To my way of thinking I think it's very unlikely that changing the established procedures will improve chances of the victim at all but it is guaranteed to complicate the recovery, with all the risks entailed in that, for the SAR divers.

Having said that, a life is a life and it's worth doing the literature study to see if you can find any documented cases that support your point.

R..
 
Near drowning: a case study of a 31-year-old woman.

Huckabee HC, Craig PL, Williams JM.

University of Alaska, Anchorage, USA.

A 31-yr-old woman demonstrated intact neuropsychological functioning after being submerged for at least 30 minutes in icy cold water. Following submersion, the patient received CPR for approximately 1 hr. Eight hours after submersion, the patient's temperature was 31 degrees C (87 degrees F). She remained nonresponsive for 2 days after the accident. Extensive neuropsychological testing was completed 3 mo after the accident with no objective or subjective deficits evidenced. This case of hypothermically mediated neuroprotection from anoxia in an adult supports the need for further research on the putative neurophysiological mechanisms invoked and the potential for application of clinically induced hypothermia in the acute management of other types of cerebral insults.

Publication Types:
• Case Reports

PMID: 9375192 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
• Chochinov AH,
• Baydock BM,
• Bristow GK,
• Giesbrecht GG.
Department of Family Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada.
Recovery from prolonged cold water submersion is well documented in children but rare in adults. In the few adult cases reported, significant body cooling occurred (rectal temperature ranging from 22 degrees to 32 degrees C) and the victims were relatively young (< 40 years). We report a case of a 62-year-old man who was submersed in 2 degrees to 3 degrees C water for 15 minutes (time from initial submersion to intubation = 22 minutes). At the time of rescue, he had no vital signs, received prehospital Advanced Life Support, and was transported to hospital. On arrival at hospital, the patient remained in full cardiopulmonary arrest with an agonal ECG rhythm and had an initial pH of 6.77. Initial rectal temperature was near normal (36 degrees C) but subsequently dropped to 33 degrees C. The patient was resuscitated, rewarmed by forced-air warming, and treated for acute myocardial infarction, pulmonary edema, and generalized seizures. He was discharged after 27 days with minor neurologic abnormalities. Given the near-normal initial rectal temperature, preferential brain cooling may have been at least partially responsible for the positive neurologic outcome.
PMID: 9437357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
&#8226; Suominen P,
&#8226; Baillie C,
&#8226; Korpela R,
&#8226; Rautanen S,
&#8226; Ranta S,
&#8226; Olkkola KT.
Department of Anaesthesia and Intensive Care, Hospital for Children and Adolescents, Helsinki University Central Hospital, Stenbackinkatu 9, FIN-00029 HUS, Helsinki, Finland. pertti.suominen@hus.fi
BACKGROUND: Because children have less subcutaneous fat, and a higher surface area to body weight ratio than adults, it has been suggested that children cool more rapidly during submersion, and therefore have a better outcome following near-drowning incidents. AIM OF THE STUDY: To study the impact of age, submersion time, water temperature and rectal temperature in the emergency room on outcome in near-drowning. MATERIAL AND METHODS: This retrospective study included all near-drowning victims admitted to the intensive care units of Helsinki University Central Hospital after successful cardiopulmonary resuscitation between 1985 and 1997. RESULTS: There were 61 near-drowning victims (age range: 0.5-60 years, median 29 years). Males were in the majority (40), and 26 were children (<16 years). The median water temperature was 17 degrees C (range: 0-33 degrees C). The median submersion time for the 43 survivors (70%) was 10 min (range: 1-38 min). Intact survivors and those with mild neurological disability (n=26, 43%) had a median submersion time of 5 min (range: 1-21 min). In non-survivors the median submersion time was 16 min (range: 2-75 min). Submersion time was the only independent predictor of survival in linear regression analysis (P<0.01). Patient age, water temperature and rectal temperature in the emergency room were not significant predictors of survival. CONCLUSIONS: Although submersion time is usually an estimate, it is the best prognostic factor after a near drowning incident. Children did not have a better outcome than adults.
PMID: 11886729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
&#8226; Genoni L,
&#8226; Domenighetti G.
Cardiopulmonary resuscitation was successful in a healthy 29-year-old woman who had been submerged for 20 minutes in water at 10 degrees C. The evolution was characterized by the development of a multifactorial ARDS (secondary drowning) and sepsis caused by Aeromonas hydrophila and Acinetobacter anitratum. Fibrosing alveolitis caused a restrictive syndrome with severe mechanical impairment and transitory therapy-resistant hypoxemia. It is suggested that prolonged submersion in cold water is also a treatable and completely reversible condition in adults. In our patient without neurological sequelae the pulmonary function studies after 3 months show complete recovery from the mechanical impairment. After a follow-up period of 11 months only mild abnormalities of gas exchange persist.
PMID: 6287569 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
&#8226; umle B,
&#8226; Doring B,
&#8226; Mertes H,
&#8226; Posival H.
Klinik fur Anasthesiologie und operative Intensivmedizin, Klinkum der Stadt Ludwigshafen.
We report on a 21-year old patient who nearly drowned in cold water under inexplicable circumstances. About 1/2 hour later he was found with cardiac arrest. Immediate cardiopulmonary resuscitation remained unsuccessfully but was continued. After transportation to the nearest hospital a core temperature of 26.1 degrees C was recorded. A team of our hospital arrived 2 1/2 hours after start of cardiopulmonary resuscitation. After introducing a femo-femoral bypass the patient was rapidly rewarmed and oxygenated using a portable extracorporeal circulation and membrane oxygenation. Defibrillation succeeded at a core temperature of 34.4 degrees C. A severe ARDS developed the same day which was successfully treated by membrane oxygenation. 41 days later the patient left the hospital fully recovered.
PMID: 9498097 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
&#8226; Sumann G,
&#8226; Krismer AC,
&#8226; Wenzel V,
&#8226; Adelsmayr E,
&#8226; Schwarz B,
&#8226; Lindner KH,
&#8226; Mair P.
Departments of Anesthesiology and Critical Care Medicine, Leopold-Franzens-University, Innsbruck, Austria.
Recent animal data have challenged the common clinical practice to avoid vasopressor drugs during hypothermic cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) when core temperature is below 30 degrees C. In this report, we describe the case of a 19-year-old-female patient with prolonged, hypothermic, out-of-hospital cardiopulmonary arrest after near drowning (core temperature, 27 degrees C) in whom cardiocirculatory arrest persisted despite 2 mg of intravenous epinephrine; but, immediate return of spontaneous circulation occurred after a single dose (40 IU) of intravenous vasopressin. The patient was subsequently admitted to a hospital with stable haemodynamics, and was successfully rewarmed with convective rewarming, but died of multiorgan failure 15 h later. To the best of our knowledge, this is the first report about the use of vasopressin during hypothermic CPR in humans. This case report adds to the growing evidence that vasopressors may be useful to restore spontaneous circulation in hypothermic cardiac arrest patients prior to rewarming, thus avoiding prolonged mechanical CPR efforts, or usage of extracorporeal circulation. It may also support previous experience that the combination of both epinephrine and vasopressin may be necessary to achieve the vasopressor response needed for restoration of spontaneous circulation, especially after asphyxial cardiac arrest or during prolonged CPR efforts.
PMID: 12648206 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Article in French]
&#8226; Incagnoli P,
&#8226; Bourgeois B,
&#8226; Teboul A,
&#8226; Laborie JM.
Service d'anesthesie cardiovasculaire, departement d'anesthesie-reanimation-II, CHU de Grenoble, hopital Michallon, BP 207, 38043 Grenoble cedex 09, France. pincagnoli@club-internet.fr
In winter, French Medicalised Ambulance Service rescued a 50-year-old patient after suicide attempts by jump from a bridge in the Seine. The body was discovered after more than 10 minutes of immersion. She was unconscious and in deep hypothermia with circulatory arrest. Basic CPR was started immediately and oral intubation and 100% oxygen ventilation was performed. Ventricular fibrillation appeared but repeated defibrillation failed due to profound hypothermia (rectal temperature: 28 degrees C). The patient was immediately transported to hospital. CPR and mechanical ventilation was continued during transport. The patient was taken in emergency room. The oesophageal temperature was 22 degrees C. Rewarming using extracorporeal circulation was immediately initiated after insertion of femoral access. At 27 degrees C, ventricular fibrillation started and was converted by external defibrillation to a pulse-generating cardiac rhythm. At 360 minutes, the patient's rectal temperature had reached 36 degrees C and she was disconnected from cardiopulmonary bypass with inotropic support. She was transferred to the intensive care unit after 9 hours of resuscitation, rewarming and stabilisation. Mechanical ventilation was needed for 15 days because of adult respiratory distress syndrome. Renal failure, pneumonia also occurred. She was successfully extubated on day 15 and was discharged from intensive care unit on day 21, suffering no neurological side effects.
PMID: 16516435 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
&#8226; Mahoney PF,
&#8226; Williams L,
&#8226; Andrews JI.
District General Hospital, Sunderland.
A case of a 24-year-old male who survived a near drowning despite suboptimal pre-hospital management is reported. The case illustrates the value of continuing resuscitative efforts even in the apparently dead drowning victim.
PMID: 8329080 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
We don't, never have and I hope never will shoot a victim/body to the surface. They don't normally weigh enough underwater to warrant using lift bags. So all of ours either come up with us or are hauled up by the surface crew.

I can see it now. Body takes off like a rocket and the diver starts a slow assent. About half way through the process the body passes the diver on his way back down.

People sometimes forget that a victim/body is evidence and should be handled as such. Once you shoot one to the surface you just FUBARED everything. Besides it&#8217;s not very professional or respectful.

Gary D.
 
mikerault:
In my research they indicated that hypothermia may not have as much affect as they first thought.

As opposed to what other factors? I don't see MDR mentioned in any of these. The hypothermia is the key to the survivability if they're handled properly. Very cold water on the face is a bad thing as it will produce a gasp response. If underwater (or even close to water) a real danger exists of aspirating water which may lead to rapid drowning.
Try this. Fill up your kitchen sink with cold water and ice cubes and stick your face into it. You will have an unstoppable urge to (first get your face out of there because it'll hurt alot!) inhale - this is the gasp response. Now notice how fast your breathing is - should be 40-60 BPM! The potential of getting water into the airway is huge
This is why they drown. There's no time for the body to slow down.

Probably an easier example would be to watch a diver when he unexpectedly goes through a thermocline or if a mask is dislodged in cold water. Same sort of response

I
mikerault:
agree that a properly protected diver may not suffer hypothermia.

Almost certainly not severe enough to slow metabolic function to the point you're suggesting


The cases you cite in your last post appear to be all cold water immersion cases - not divers. Like I said, this is not true MDR and either way you won't find a drowned diver as salvagable as a regular cold water immersion victim.

Our team's window is 1 hour with consideration for young children and ice/very cold water but I'd never run a full rescue op for anyone over 90min down (most teams wouldn't consider anything over 1 hr). Diver0001 brings up a good point - the team may be at higher risk running in rescue mode as opposed to recovery. Its an unfortunate truth that as the percentages go down the risks don't measure up. Sometimes, promoting false hope to the family is the worst thing we can do.
A diver confirmed submerged and not breathing more than an hour has nearly 0% in any water. The PSD community hasn't pulled these numbers out of thin air and we DO look at data all the time but if you do have something different please share.


*** disclaimer --- I should also state that doing the little sink experiment shouldn't be done if you have any sort of breathing problems or heart problems including high blood pressure. In other words - it could kill you if you're not in perfect health
 
Gary D.:
We don't, never have and I hope never will shoot a victim/body to the surface. They don't normally weigh enough underwater to warrant using lift bags. So all of ours either come up with us or are hauled up by the surface crew.

I can see it now. Body takes off like a rocket and the diver starts a slow assent. About half way through the process the body passes the diver on his way back down.

People sometimes forget that a victim/body is evidence and should be handled as such. Once you shoot one to the surface you just FUBARED everything. Besides it’s not very professional or respectful.

Gary D.

True enough, Gary. I've never heard of a PSD team doing this in a rescue or recovery. It faster and easier to NOT use lift bags anyway
 
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