Do you actually see people diving with pony bottles?

[MXGratefulDiver]

That's not a rule I'd follow, nor any of the other 20+ divers that were on the regularly scheduled 3-tank boat dive to 3 different Key Largo wrecks courtesy of Ocean Divers. We did the Spiegel Grove, Duane, and Bibb, at depths up to 120' on AL80s and had some nice dives, with bottom times averaging 20-30 minutes. Of course our average depths were considerably shallower than recreational limits but we certainly exceeded 80' for much of those dives.

The rule is meant for newer divers, who are typically heavy breathers. At your current experience level I'd be willing to bet your consumption rate is a fraction of what it was when you were a new diver.

That said, 20-30 minutes is a short dive. If I were going to the trouble to go dive something like those wrecks you mentioned, I'd want at least an hour on the wreck ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rek_diver]

Well are we talking new divers only, or all divers including experienced divers?

Because I can understand if the rule is only applied to the former.

Edited to add: My question was answered in the simultaneous post above this one.

My SAC rate is about .6 nowadays which gives me plenty of bottom time and as I've stated elsewhere since I carry a 19cf pony I let my main tank get to 500 psi before starting my ascent even from a deeper dive.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Clear agency guidance is overdue. PADI, NAUI, SSI, SDI, DAN, etc., should be providing evidence-based, experience-based guidance on how to use these tools since their use has become widespread in the general recreational diving community and the hazards are now known.

Guidance directed at whom? I'm not familiar with the Solo or Self-Reliant courses, but I would expect them to teach how to use a pony. If one has to rely on insta-buddies or that sort of thing, then by all means take a Solo course and learn how to use a pony. So, if you meant that the guidance/training in Solo courses on the use of ponies is inadequate, then I agree they should address that.

As for the needs of the rest of the agency's students--mainly plain ol' OW buddy-diving folks--I would back up a step and ask whether these "tools" need be as "widespread" as they seem to be getting. I mean, WHY are we seeing more people carrying ponies? Maybe this phenomenon is the result of a deficiency in OW training? Instead of providing guidance/training to the general OW diver community to use a pony, maybe teach better gas planning and buddy skills for plain ol' single-tank diving. If the dive one wants to do requires more gas to provide an adequate safety margin, then the conventional solution is to take a bigger tank, or learn to dive with two tanks--sidemount or backmount. There are well-established courses for these things with plenty of "guidance." There is no reason to complicate plain ol' single-tank diving by advocating ponies for all who think they might get a warm and fuzzy feeling by having one.

The rest of your post makes me realize why many people consider diving with two tanks to be bordering on the tech realm. Perhaps diving with a pony doesn't present potential issues that are all that different from those involved in backmount doubles or sidemount? As I alluded to above, maybe some of the people who are diving with ponies are, in effect, just using them as a way to avoid the hassle (and cost, training time, etc.) of backmount doubles or sidemount. Maybe it's dangerous for one to think of a pony as sort of intermediate ground between a single tank and doubles/sidemount--"doubles light," if you will. People generally do some training (whether formal or mentoring) to dive sidemount or backmount doubles to learn how to deal with the issues, but any fool can carry a pony? No. If a diver really needs two tanks to do the dive he wants to do, then maybe he should face up to that fact and use the well-established configurations and protocols, rather than trying to shoehorn a pony (is that a horseshoe?) into a dive that would more conventionally call for backmount doubles or sidemount.

Ponies have their place--mainly for those who dive alone or effectively alone. They're not a panacea.

 

[Wookie]

All I teach is solo. I have a number of different sized ponies up to an 80. I will teach you how to rig it tank mount, valve up or down, slung, in a RASS (NOAA's version), or however you think you want. I have rigging for each and can discuss sensibly how each is used and why.

NOAA allows one configuration, and the divers hate it. That's what happens when a certification agency tries to give guidance. They also don't guide you to BPW, poodle jacket, stab jacket, or horse collar. They just tell you you need buoyancy.

 

[boulderjohn]

Guidance directed at whom? I'm not familiar with the Solo or Self-Reliant courses, but I would expect them to teach how to use a pony.

Self-reliant requires it.

It is one option for an alternate air source in the Deep Diver Specialty.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Self-reliant requires it.

It is one option for an alternate air source in the Deep Diver Specialty.

My instructor for the PADI Deep course had me sling a pony, but we sure didn't go into the kind of detail that 2airishuman refers to about configurations and procedures. I duly slung it, I breathed from it during the safety stop, and that was it. Actually, now that I think about it, that's not all. My instructor was a tech diver, and he explained how, if it were a deco tank, they would trace the hose from the second stage back to the tank to make sure they're breathing the right one, check the MOD, etc., and he had me try that. I filed all that away in my brain, but have never used a pony since. If anything, it gave me the impression there was more to consider before I would carry a second tank like that, whether it be "just a pony" or a deco/stage bottle. In other words, I got the impression that some of the issues related to deco/stage bottles could possibly be applicable to ponies. As this thread reveals, there are both pros and cons in carrying a pony.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My instructor for the PADI Deep course had me sling a pony, but we sure didn't go into the kind of detail that 2airishuman refers to about configurations and procedures. I duly slung it, I breathed from it during the safety stop, and that was it. Actually, now that I think about it, that's not all. My instructor was a tech diver, and he explained how, if it were a deco tank, they would trace the hose from the second stage back to the tank to make sure they're breathing the right one, check the MOD, etc., and he had me try that. I filed all that away in my brain, but have never used a pony since. If anything, it gave me the impression there was more to consider before I would carry a second tank like that, whether it be "just a pony" or a deco/stage bottle. In other words, I got the impression that some of the issues related to deco/stage bottles could possibly be applicable to ponies. As this thread reveals, there are both pros and cons in carrying a pony.

Tracing the reg hose back to the first stage stems from the practice of carrying multiple deco bottles with different mixes in them. It's imperative to make sure you're breathing off of the one you think you are. Very bad things can happen if you deploy a reg at 70 feet from your O2 bottle when you think you're switching to EAN50.

That problem does not exist when you're carrying a pony because (a) you're only carrying a single bottle, and (b) it presumably has a bottom mix in it ... preferably the same gas you're carrying in your back cylinder. So while there may be some (questionable) benefit in learning this technique at this level, the drawback is that it unnecessarily complicates the deployment, slowing down a process that is intended as an emergency procedure.

Think about this for a moment ... divers who are deploying a deco bottle will be breathing off of their backgas reg while doing so. On the other hand, divers who are deploying a pony bottle are likely doing so because their backgas cylinder is empty. Why in the world would you want to complicate the process by introducing a technique that has no practical benefit to the problem you're trying to solve?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Lorenzoid]

Bob, I didn't say the issues are the same; what I was trying to say is that SOME of the considerations that go into using a deco or stage bottle could be applicable. How do you carry it. How do you know which first stage is which. Not rocket science, but things to consider. Tracing the hose back was just something my instructor showed me would be done with a deco bottle; he in NO way implied it was something one would do when using a pony, and I did not assert in my post above that it was something one would do. Nevertheless, see 2airishuman's point number 2 in his post above, which is what brought this to mind. Also, you say the pony "presumably" has bottom mix in it. Presumably, yes, but that too is something for the prospective pony carrier to think about--what's in his pony. The specific ramblings about irrelevant stuff I did in my Deep course aside, the more general point I was making is that I think there can be potential pitfalls to casually carrying a pony without having given enough thought to all the issues involved in using it (not to mention practicing deploying it). It's not rocket science, but there are things one might want to think about.

 

[scubafanatic]

That's why I carry either sidemount gear or rigging and regulator to make an Alu 80 into a stage bottle for deeper warm water dives.

I think this thread is the poster child illustrating the dramatic differences between the average Scubaboard poster vs the other 99.9999 % of scuba divers. I have never ever seen anyone on any recreational dive trip doing side-mount, or slinging a AL80 stage, maybe once or twice I've seen someone with a small pony bottle. (I've been diving since 2001)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think this thread is the poster child illustrating the dramatic differences between the average Scubaboard poster vs the other 99.9999 % of scuba divers. I have never ever seen anyone on any recreational dive trip doing side-mount, or slinging a AL80 stage, maybe once or twice I've seen someone with a small pony bottle. (I've been diving since 2001)

I have quite a few diving friends who are strictly recreational divers who dive sidemount. Many of them are not on ScubaBoard. This is particularly true of my Canadian friends, partly I think because there are some dive shops up there who carry the gear and provide the training for using it correctly. I used to teach it down here on my side of the border, and the majority of my students were older people who saw benefits in being able to put on the heaviest parts of their gear in the water.

Like most things, the tradeoffs are going to influence your choices, and the benefits/drawbacks will vary depending on where and what type of diving you typically do. For cold water divers who mostly dive from shore, sidemount is a viable option even if you're only ever going to do recreational profiles.

You probably don't see many drysuit divers either ... but where I dive almost everyone uses them ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)