do you intervene with cruel nature?

[Mr.X]

Now this is where your advocacy steps in and I've made it perfectly clear that I do not intend to preach or wage a war of arguments in this thread. You have your views and I have mine.

So, you can fume all you want, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

Eloquently stated. Speaking in absolutes signifies a perspective which generally paints people into a corner. Not terrific for open discourse. As fellow organisms on this planet we are entitled to live here and since we've managed to impact it greatly, humans (collectively) have responsibility for its management. Like it or not, that's how it tends to be these days. How we perform our sheparding duties could be determined by:

* The situation at hand (is it a natural process and how grave is it?)
* What are the after effects should I intervene (consequences)

What we do as individual divers is pretty minute in the larger scheme of things.
Just my two cents. X

 

[nkw5]

What we do as individual divers is pretty minute in the larger scheme of things.
Just my two cents. X

But as a diving community, we can and do make a difference. So perhaps as individual divers, we should explore ideas (like this thread has done for some of us) and make intelligent choices, so we can collectively be good managers.

 

[Mr.X]

But as a diving community, we can and do make a difference. So perhaps as individual divers, we should explore ideas (like this thread has done for some of us) and make intelligent choices, so we can collectively be good managers.

Agreed. I was referring specifically to individual chance events underwater. I've always been a member of groups that support conservation and highly support your viewpoint. Cheers. X

 

[bnelson]

your points are great as well, and you are absolutely right, we all need to look at the aftereffects of our actions. one thing though, our actions as individual divers might be pretty minute, but our actions as a group of divers is another thing entirely.

mislav- i don't think that my posts are flames, we just have a difference of opinion. again, as you said, we are all entitled to that, but might it be you who came to the
discussion not willing to learn anything new or give it some thought?

i will always try to listen to everyone's point of view. you never know, it might change your's...

Eloquently stated. Speaking in absolutes signifies a perspective which generally paints people into a corner. Not terrific for open discourse. As fellow organisms on this planet we are entitled to live here and since we've managed to impact it greatly, humans (collectively) have responsibility for its management. Like it or not, that's how it tends to be these days. How we perform our sheparding duties could be determined by:

* The situation at hand (is it a natural process and how grave is it?)
* What are the after effects should I intervene (consequences)

What we do as individual divers is pretty minute in the larger scheme of things.
Just my two cents. X

 

[Santa]

I let the sharks chomp away because I'm impatient.

If I weren't I'd consider man an expression of evolution and therefore nature. I'd save turtles driven by compassion and possibly further the evolution of sharks willing to turn to sea-weed.

That way, over time, since most people are unlikely to be mistaken for seaweed,shark accident statistics might drop, possibly endangering humans making their living with ISAF.

I'd then have to consider the morality of saving turtles at the expense of ISAF employees - if indeed I myself were alive by that time and not dead because someone somewhere saved a kitten from a tree causing similar havoc and tragedy.

 

[bnelson]

heh

I let the sharks chomp away because I'm impatient.

If I weren't I'd consider man an expression of evolution and therefore nature. I'd save turtles driven by compassion and possibly further the evolution of sharks willing to turn to sea-weed.

That way, over time, since most people are unlikely to be mistaken for seaweed,shark accident statistics might drop, possibly endangering humans making their living with ISAF.

I'd then have to consider the morality of saving turtles at the expense of ISAF employees - if indeed I myself were alive by that time and not dead because someone somewhere saved a kitten from a tree causing similar havoc and tragedy.

 

[Mr.X]

I let the sharks chomp away because I'm impatient.

If I weren't I'd consider man an expression of evolution and therefore nature. I'd save turtles driven by compassion and possibly further the evolution of sharks willing to turn to sea-weed.

That way, over time, since most people are unlikely to be mistaken for seaweed,shark accident statistics might drop, possibly endangering humans making their living with ISAF.

I'd then have to consider the morality of saving turtles at the expense of ISAF employees - if indeed I myself were alive by that time and not dead because someone somewhere saved a kitten from a tree causing similar havoc and tragedy.

I don't think existentialism ever saved a wet kitty stuck in a tree.

 

[tjmills]

Brian, the original poster asked for our opinions on an issue he himself was uncertain of and got two kinds of responses. I stated my opinion on the subject giving alongside some food for thought.

Returned afterwards to check for any responses and found TJ's note how anyone not agreeing with his views should be ashamed of himself. It was in plural so it didn't concern only me. To this my response was a simple - no, I won't be ashamed. I could have made it reciprocal - no, you should be ashamed of your views! - yet, of course, I didn't. I know better than that.

Now this is where your advocacy steps in and I've made it perfectly clear that I do not intend to preach or wage a war of arguments in this thread. You have your views and I have mine.

Again, you come back flaming and converting everyone to your beliefs by means of sword and fire. Don't you believe in what you're saying? If, by your words, neither me, you, nor the scientific community have a definite answer to this issue then why are we not entitled to our own different opinions?

I saw right away that you did not enter this discussion willing to learn anything new or to give it some thought. This is why I won't discuss this matter any further.

So, you can fume all you want, but I won't lose any sleep over it.

First of all, if I was ever in a position that I needed saving, I would appreciate it if you just did it and not wait to see if tjmills was printed on my big forehead.

The only point I want you to see, and choose your own direction, is what are the consequences of your actions in a case like this? If its only you, no big deal. But if dozens or hundreds of people were to take your position on this what would this do to the basic ecosystem that we are visiting? What would it cause? Something to think about.

I wasn't trying to flame anyone in my comments but I do believe strongly in what I said and if I were to see this happen, it would upset me greatly. We have been granted short visits to these delicate places and nobody has the right to alter them to their liking or beliefs. Consequences.

 

[mislav]

mislav- i don't think that my posts are flames, we just have a difference of opinion. again, as you said, we are all entitled to that, but might it be you who came to the discussion not willing to learn anything new or give it some thought?

i will always try to listen to everyone's point of view. you never know, it might change your's...

Good luck trying to find evidence to back up your claim about me, Brian - and please avoid such cheap shots in future. Also, from your first two posts in this thread it didn't seem like you were really that open to allowing a difference of opinion. Me, on the other hand... had it all explained crystal clear in my previous post.

 

[mislav]

First of all, if I was ever in a position that I needed saving, I would appreciate it if you just did it and not wait to see if tjmills was printed on my big forehead.

The only point I want you to see, and choose your own direction, is what are the consequences of your actions in a case like this? If its only you, no big deal. But if dozens or hundreds of people were to take your position on this what would this do to the basic ecosystem that we are visiting? What would it cause? Something to think about.

I wasn't trying to flame anyone in my comments but I do believe strongly in what I said and if I were to see this happen, it would upset me greatly. We have been granted short visits to these delicate places and nobody has the right to alter them to their liking or beliefs. Consequences.

TJ, are you sure you wouldn't want me to stop and think first whether you are a natural part of ole circle of life thingy? Just to be on the safe side?

I actually believe that what we do as divers can never be compared to the harm people are doing to the environment through fishing, food industry and military presence in the oceans. We have probably done steps that preceed the ones we'd do by protecting some sea living creatures. Perhaps, they wouldn't have been hunted in the first place if there wasn't for our involvement?

Therefore, we may choose to play an active role or a passive one, depending on our own judgement. I see my reasoning along the lines of what Marek and Rick for instance posted earlier in this thread and find some good points made over there. The only counter-argument I've seen so far is that the predator might die of starvation? Many predators have multiple dinner choices, so I find that very unlikely. Not enough to change my mind so far.

Mr.X has some excellent points in this thread. Just thought I would mention it.

The way I see it is that us divers and marine biologists should have a better understanding of marine life and actively protect it from the effects of other members of the world community. Mainly those who are here only to exploit it.

Peace out.

EDITED: Minor edit for reason of clarity.