do you intervene with cruel nature?

[bnelson]

if i disagree with you i'm wrong and cheap, but if you disagree with me i'm wrong and cheap?

i think i'm done with this conversation as well, but tjmills had a great point:

"I wasn't trying to flame anyone in my comments but I do believe strongly in what I said and if I were to see this happen, it would upset me greatly. We have been granted short visits to these delicate places and nobody has the right to alter them to their liking or beliefs. Consequences."

it's not our place...

Good luck trying to find evidence to back up your claim about me, Brian - and please avoid such cheap shots in future. Also, from your first two posts in this thread it didn't seem like you were really that open to allowing a difference of opinion. Me, on the other hand... had it all explained crystal clear in my previous post.

 

[Mr.X]

if i disagree with you i'm wrong and cheap, but if you disagree with me i'm wrong and cheap?

i think i'm done with this conversation as well, but tjmills had a great point:


it's not our place...

Aw come-on'. It's not that bad. This thread is a theoretical exercise for the most part. We are all entitled to our opinions and feelings. Heck, half the fun of this thread has been the strong opinion, occasional flame and debate. If there is anything that is wrong and cheap it would be the plastic goods that flood the shelves at US Walmarts.

 

[Hank49]

This has been in interesting discussion. But in reality, in over 1000 some dives, other than seeing a small fish gulp down a smaller fish in an eye blink, I've yet to see an attack by a large predator on a prey that took more than one bite and one in which the prey could be "saved". I've seen sharks eat carcasses of fish but they literally blow them to pieces at impact. I don't think there'd be much to save after a violent attack like that.

 

[airsix]

This is an interesting thread. Not the marine biology part, the human psychology part. Many people "get it" but quite a few posters are definitely taking sides without knowing it. There is a lot of talk about "save the victim from the predator". Statements like that imply that the predator is "bad" or "wrong" or "committing a sin", and that the prey is "good" and "a victim of a crime". What about the predator? If you steal a meal from the predator you might be killing it. The mortality rates among predators are much higher than for other organisms. I work with birds of prey. For most species the mortality rate in the first 12 months is over 90%. Because they starve. Predators don't just pick their prey from a buffett. They risk their lives and exhert all their physical capacity to catch each meal. They live their lives with one foot in the grave and the other on a bananna peel. I've watched a hawk struggle for hours until it was exhausted and vulnerable trying to catch a meal. It's not easy for them. When a predator finally catches that meal after a long struggle (it might not look like a struggle to you, but you haven't followed the animal around for the past week either) and you come along and rob it, you vary well might be killing the predator. So is it really better to save a prey animal that is one in a population of 1,000,000 and in so doing kill a predator which is one in a population of only 200? Put emotion aside and let them exist. Disrupting the food chain is NOT the right way to make the world a better place.
-Ben M.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

Seriously, I rarely interfere with natural events like feeding. In my mind it is totally inappropriate, especially since we often side with the "cutest" species over the real ugly ones (which make great photographic subjects), or the warm blooded vs the "cold blooded" ones.

-The best words spoken in the whole thread! And I read it all... Can we all move along now, so we don't have to witness another "battle" of twisted sayings and personal attacks?

 

[bnelson]

great points airsix

it's not that i'm attacking anyone, but we all have our opinions. it's complicated to understand the predator/prey relationship, not that i'm saying that I (or anyone else, i don't know) completely understand it.

good reading too

This is an interesting thread. Not the marine biology part, the human psychology part. Many people "get it" but quite a few posters are definitely taking sides without knowing it. There is a lot of talk about "save the victim from the predator". Statements like that imply that the predator is "bad" or "wrong" or "committing a sin", and that the prey is "good" and "a victim of a crime". What about the predator? If you steal a meal from the predator you might be killing it. The mortality rates among predators are much higher than for other organisms. I work with birds of prey. For most species the mortality rate in the first 12 months is over 90%. Because they starve. Predators don't just pick their prey from a buffett. They risk their lives and exhert all their physical capacity to catch each meal. They live their lives with one foot in the grave and the other on a bananna peel. I've watched a hawk struggle for hours until it was exhausted and vulnerable trying to catch a meal. It's not easy for them. When a predator finally catches that meal after a long struggle (it might not look like a struggle to you, but you haven't followed the animal around for the past week either) and you come along and rob it, you vary well might be killing the predator. So is it really better to save a prey animal that is one in a population of 1,000,000 and in so doing kill a predator which is one in a population of only 200? Put emotion aside and let them exist. Disrupting the food chain is NOT the right way to make the world a better place.
-Ben M.

 

[Mr.X]

-The best words spoken in the whole thread! And I read it all... Can we all move along now, so we don't have to witness another "battle" of twisted sayings and personal attacks?

I think that's a moderators job to move things along? Let the folks have their say.

Personally, I like this thread since it lightly parallels the infamous whaling thread. X

 

[tjmills]

TJ, are you sure you wouldn't want me to stop and think first whether you are a natural part of ole circle of life thingy? Just to be on the safe side?

I actually believe that what we do as divers can never be compared to the harm people are doing to the environment through fishing, food industry and military presence in the oceans. We have probably done steps that preceed the ones we'd do by protecting some sea living creatures. Perhaps, they wouldn't have been hunted in the first place if there wasn't for our involvement?

Therefore, we may choose to play an active role or a passive one, depending on our own judgement. I see my reasoning along the lines of what Marek and Rick for instance posted earlier in this thread and find some good points made over there. The only counter-argument I've seen so far is that the predator might die of starvation? Many predators have multiple dinner choices, so I find that very unlikely. Not enough to change my mind so far.

Mr.X has some excellent points in this thread. Just thought I would mention it.

The way I see it is that us divers and marine biologists should have a better understanding of marine life and actively protect it from the effects of other members of the world community. Mainly those who are here only to exploit it.

Peace out.

EDITED: Minor edit for reason of clarity.

When you interfere, you are the one who is expoiting it to your own believes. Don't you see that? Aganin, its your choice but when you are trying to save me, don't do it. I am likely to hit the top of the water rather ungreatful. An you dont want that.


Seriously though, you are granted a short pass. Don't screw it up. I dont know a single marine biologiest that has any integrity to his field that would ever intervein. Ever. And if by chance they did without a really solid reason, his peers would likely remove his credibility to the organization. Just doesn't happen.

 

[KOMPRESSOR]

I think that's a moderators job to move things along? Let the folks have their say.

Personally, I like this thread since it lightly parallels the infamous whaling thread. X

I'm talking about getting personal, and so it did in the FAMOUS whaling thread as well. If that's what you liked about it then you are.... Oh, never mind!

 

[Santa]

I don't think existentialism ever saved a wet kitty stuck in a tree.

Or from getting its' head all messed up with a fountain pen ;0)

Evolution is a dangerous thing