Does Nitrox make you feel better? (split from Nitrox on OW course)

[lamont]

deep stops started out entirely anecdotally. now it is difficult to find technical divers who don't do some form or other of them...

 

[scubadada]

deep stops started out entirely anecdotally. now it is difficult to find technical divers who don't do some form or other of them...

lamont,

Not to detract from the point of this thread, "Does nitrox make you feel better?". I'm reminded of one of my favorite signature lines from SB, that from Dave, Teamcasa, "The plural of andecdote is not data".

I would refer the interested reader to Bennett PB, Wienke B, Mitchell S, Eds, Decompression and Deep Stop Workshop. Proceedings of the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society's 2008 June 24-25 Pre-Course to the UHMS Annual Scientific Meeting, Salt Lake City, Utah. Copies are available from the UHMS, where I got mine.

The extensive discussion in the publication is extremely interesting and thought provoking and is a good read for anyone interested in the topic. The consensus statement regarding the efficacy of deep stops appropriate for release to the diving community was, "In respect of decompression diving there is conflicting evidence regarding the relative efficacy of decompression regimens that include empirical or model-derived deep stops (as defined) and decompression regimens prescribed by gas content models."

There is considerable loose banter concerning scientific topics on SB. I attempt to reference my statements when apppropriate, fully realizing that that my arguments will be dismissed by many who invoke a different standard.

Remain skeptical, good diving, Craig

 

[Thalassamania]

I can't find my copy of the proceedings, either on the shelf of the web, but as I recall the information was interesting but completely inconclusive.

 

[k ellis]

I wonder how you can know that for a fact? How did you eliminate the possibility of the placebo affect?

How could you not consider it to be correct?

 

[scubadada]

I can't find my copy of the proceedings, either on the shelf of the web, but as I recall the information was interesting but completely inconclusive.

Hi Thal,

The publication is available off the UHMS website under publications/workshops and other Products > WORKSHOPS AND OTHER REPORTS

You're right, the consensus statement simply says there is conflicting evidence. This is hardly a bold statement that deep stops should be adopted by the majority of decompression or recreational divers based on the available evidence. My advice is that one should be as well informed as possible and then make an educated, rational decision based on evidence as you perceive and interpret it. I am always skeptical of "expert" opinion that is not backed up with data, I think all people should be.

When someone asks me why I dive with nitrox or air or why I do or do not make deep stops, I have a thoughtful answer and am prepared to have a meaningful discussion if desired. I'm satisfied with the important diving decisions I make, I hope most divers are.

Good diving, Craig

 

[vladimir]

Amid all the skepticism in this thread about the effect of nitrox there seems to be widespread acceptance of the placebo effect. This study in the New England Journal of Medicine might make you reconsider:

NEJM -- Is the Placebo Powerless?- An Analysis of Clinical Trials Comparing Placebo with No Treatment

Although placebos had no significant effects on objective or binary outcomes, they had possible small benefits in studies with continuous subjective outcomes and for the treatment of pain.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

lamont,

Not to detract from the point of this thread, "Does nitrox make you feel better?". I'm reminded of one of my favorite signature lines from SB, that from Dave, Teamcasa, "The plural of andecdote is not data".

I would refer the interested reader to Bennett PB, Wienke B, Mitchell S, Eds, Decompression and Deep Stop Workshop. Proceedings of the Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society's 2008 June 24-25 Pre-Course to the UHMS Annual Scientific Meeting, Salt Lake City, Utah. Copies are available from the UHMS, where I got mine.

The extensive discussion in the publication is extremely interesting and thought provoking and is a good read for anyone interested in the topic. The consensus statement regarding the efficacy of deep stops appropriate for release to the diving community was, "In respect of decompression diving there is conflicting evidence regarding the relative efficacy of decompression regimens that include empirical or model-derived deep stops (as defined) and decompression regimens prescribed by gas content models."

There is considerable loose banter concerning scientific topics on SB. I attempt to reference my statements when apppropriate, fully realizing that that my arguments will be dismissed by many who invoke a different standard.

Remain skeptical, good diving, Craig

Decompression is, at best, an anecdotal study. Every algorithm I'm aware of is based on some level of data that was derived from actual dives, and studies about what happened to subjects based on the dive profiles.

I believe it was Ross Hemingway or Eric Baker who once stated that "we're all lab rats". I think that's a true statement ... because there are simply too many variables to be able to quantify any deco strategy into a quantitative set of rules that works for everybody. You have to either build in an incredible amount of conservatism or understand the reason for those rules sufficient to modify them for your own personal needs.

Most folks I know who do staged decompression diving use a chosen algorithm as a starting point ... and modify it based on how they feel after the dive. That's how I learned to create my deco profiles. And when it comes to a choice between listening to my own body, or listening to someone else's published work, I KNOW which one I'm going to put more credibility in ... at least until there's a published paper out there that includes data that was taken from my own personal dives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Hi Thal,

The publication is available off the UHMS website under publications/workshops and other Products > WORKSHOPS AND OTHER REPORTS

I took notes when this first came out, and, like Thal, I am unable to find them. I recall being confused about their definition of a deep stop. Can you summarize your understanding?

 

[firstdive2005]

I am 52. Canadian, caucasian, eat very healthily, excersize everyday, and just blew my doctors away on my recent stress test,(good). Have a slight thyroid issue, pills fix fine.
I dove one week recently on Coz. First 10 dives straight air, second 10, I used 32%on second dives and 36% on the third dives of the day. I did not feel the need for a nap after and the night shore dives I felt completely energized for.
After the first set of 10 dives I was bagged after the dives, and if I did not nap I was just irritatble and did not bother with a night dive. But the turn around on my physical sense of well being and strength was amazing to me. I did the test on purpose because of an argument here I read once before. I know all the intellects here will still call this anecdotal but to me it is proof, for three straight days in a row I did not need an afternoon nap to function later in the day. So it works for me.
I truly respect the other opinions on this topic. And I felt safe doing my experiment. I am going to spend a month on Coz. in Feb. I will do another study with more time involved. Maybe some of you could pm me with the proper protocols to do the study. I have others interested on doing it with me. Thanks for the topic again, kevin

 

[boulderjohn]

I am 52. Canadian, caucasian, eat very healthily, excersize everyday, and just blew my doctors away on my recent stress test,(good). Have a slight thyroid issue, pills fix fine.
I dove one week recently on Coz. First 10 dives straight air, second 10, I used 32%on second dives and 36% on the third dives of the day. I did not feel the need for a nap after and the night shore dives I felt completely energized for.
After the first set of 10 dives I was bagged after the dives, and if I did not nap I was just irritatble and did not bother with a night dive. But the turn around on my physical sense of well being and strength was amazing to me. I did the test on purpose because of an argument here I read once before. I know all the intellects here will still call this anecdotal but to me it is proof, for three straight days in a row I did not need an afternoon nap to function later in the day. So it works for me.
I truly respect the other opinions on this topic. And I felt safe doing my experiment. I am going to spend a month on Coz. in Feb. I will do another study with more time involved. Maybe some of you could pm me with the proper protocols to do the study. I have others interested on doing it with me. Thanks for the topic again, kevin

I would be interested in the results. I know the custom in Coz is to do the first dive on air and then do the subsequent dives on nitrox, but it does not have to be that way. You can do nitrox on first dives if you talk them into it--as I did. You won't want it if you are doing Maracaibo, and if you are doing the Cathedral or Devil's throat you will need to be comfortable dipping briefly a bit past the 1.4 standard.