Donating to an OOA

[boulderjohn]

I agree with you though, hand the reg off to the OOA diver without making extra bubbles or wasting even a second. Back up goes in a second or two after hand off.

Once while in a tech class, my buddy for some reason drifted below me, and our instructor, quick to pounce on this fault, turned off my air. I signaled my buddy, and he handed me his primary, reaching up through the bubbles of last inhalation to do so. I couldn't see the regulator.

No, I do not teach students to blow out a cloud of bubbles as they hand the regulator to the OOA diver.

 

[Doc Harry]

I am a PADI instructor. I have not only never taught that concept, I have never heard another instructor of any agency even suggest it, and I have never seen it written in any agency materials.

Please tell me where I can find it in the PADI instructional materials. I must have missed it.

Since I was taught this in my PADI OW (outside of the USA) and again 2 years later in PADI Rescue (in the USA), I assumed that it was part of the PADI protocol.

 

[boulderjohn]

Since I was taught this in my PADI OW (outside of the USA) and again 2 years later in PADI Rescue (in the USA), I assumed that it was part of the PADI protocol.

You ran into two Bozo instructors who told you what they believed.

PADI's only standard is that divers learn to give and obtain alternates in OOA emergencies. There is no official way to do it. Many instructors I know use the "alternate take" philosophy (which I believe is also BSAC's philosophy, but I am not sure), which says the OOA diver should take the alternate from the donor, with the donor just getting out of the way at that point. The thinking is that the OOA diver is probably going to be going for it anyway, and trying to donate while the OOA diver is trying to take it just gets creates problems. This is different, of course, for configurations that require donating the primary.

 

[Doc Harry]

You ran into two Bozo instructors who told you what they believed.

PADI's only standard is that divers learn to give and obtain alternates in OOA emergencies. There is no official way to do it. Many instructors I know use the "alternate take" philosophy (which I believe is also BSAC's philosophy, but I am not sure), which says the OOA diver should take the alternate from the donor, with the donor just getting out of the way at that point. The thinking is that the OOA diver is probably going to be going for it anyway, and trying to donate while the OOA diver is trying to take it just gets creates problems. This is different, of course, for configurations that require donating the primary.

Thanks for the info.

Both instructors were so insistent that I had to be pressing the purge button while holding the regulator out to the OOA diver that it seemed to be a PADI requirement. I stand corrected.

 

[flots am]

The primary comes out of mouth in a flash......no prob....Now OOA diver has NO air to blow the water out, right? They may be too stressed to purge it as well. Should I purge it for them just as I approach their mouth...or wait till its in then blast it.

As a frequent cruise ship diver, I've had the benefit of viewing 4 OOAs over the past 10 or so years.

First I'd like to say that I'm not implying that all cruise ship diver suck, only that they're a wide cross-section of the diving population. Some are very good and some should still be in the shallow end of the pool, and there's everything else in between.

Now back to the topic . . .

In the cases where the diver is panicking, they'll just head for the surface and won't give a crap what you have or could offer. It simply won't be an issue. You could have an entire fill-bank on the other end of the hose. It doesn't matter. They're going up in a hurry and if lucky, won't have an embolism on the way up or drown after they get there. Two of the four OOAs I've seen did this. It might actually be more than that, because it's hard to tell the difference between OOA panic and panic from other causes.

If they're not panicking, they're usually pretty good about getting the reg and purging it, and everything goes fairly smoothly unless the donor hasn't done proper gas planning and is far from the boat. This affords the opportunity to watch the donor run OOA and the victim run OOA twice on the same dive.

The third one I've seen is the scariest and I don't know of a good way to plan for or handle it:

• An OOA diver come flying up,
• You switch regs and donate
• The OOA diver doesn't purge properly and gets a mouth or lung full of water, panics and bolts for the surface, possibly towing you by your regulator hose, maybe breathing, maybe not.

I don't think anything you do in the process of donating the reg could help here, because you just can't keep all the water out. No matter what you do, the OOA diver will need to purge the reg to use it. Purging it for them after donating will almost certainly cause problems since it will blast the water straight at their throat if they're not expecting it. Purging it while donating wouldn't seem to be practical since the victim could easily interpret a reg with a ton of bubbles coming out of it as "broken".

flots.

 

[Edward3c]

... Many instructors I know use the "alternate take" philosophy (which I believe is also BSAC's philosophy, but I am not sure), which says the OOA diver should take the alternate from the donor, with the donor just getting out of the way at that point. ...

See here for BSAC’s rational.

Regards

 

[nimoh]

Interesting scenario, although I have never experienced it, I wouldn't expect them to hang on to the regulator for very long if they were in a panic swim to the surface and you were not going up easily. I think it is best to let them go. You could float an smb from depth to try to help notify the boat, and then help them when you get to the surface after a safe ascent.

bottom line is avoid making a second victim.

 

[boulderjohn]

See here for BSAC’s rational.

Thanks.

It takes a bit of reading to get through the rationale to the clearly stated portion near the end, but here it is:

a. The BSAC Diver Training Programme clearly states the technique of training students as both donor and receiver. The instructions for the configuration and technique of teaching ‘Alternative Supply’ are consistent for all of the BSAC diving grades.

Ocean Diver – Basic Skills, states:

"teach for the more real situation of the recipient taking the donor's AS from its stowage”​

 

[Crewfish13]

The third one I've seen is the scariest and I don't know of a good way to plan for or handle it:

• An OOA diver come flying up,
• You switch regs and donate
• The OOA diver doesn't purge properly and gets a mouth or lung full of water, panics and bolts for the surface, possibly towing you by your regulator hose, maybe breathing, maybe not.

Not quite the same thing as an actual panic, but I had my instructor throw this one at me during our last OW pool session. We had an odd number of people in the class, I was paired up with the instructor for the OOA drill. As soon as the 2nd last group surfaces (and without any warning), my instructor rips off his mask, throws it one way, spits out his reg, throws it another, flies over to me and moves to yank the reg out of my mouth. Of course, I donate. As soon as the reg is in his mouth (as I'm reaching for the octo), he starts kicking for the surface. I grabbed ahdold of his BC shoulder strap, and he made me literally wrestle him back down even with me before he "calmed down" and would acknowledge any sort of communication.

I'm sure it's not exactly the same thing as a real world OOA, but it sure added a bit of realism and built my confidence in my ability to keep calm. And yes, my instructor was awesome.

All I can think for the real world scenario is that if you can get their BC shoulder strap, you may be pull their shoulders down, keeping their body more horizontal and reducing the effectiveness of kicking up.

 

[nimoh]

Not quite the same thing as an actual panic, but I had my instructor throw this one at me during our last OW pool session. We had an odd number of people in the class, I was paired up with the instructor for the OOA drill. As soon as the 2nd last group surfaces (and without any warning), my instructor rips off his mask, throws it one way, spits out his reg, throws it another, flies over to me and moves to yank the reg out of my mouth. Of course, I donate. As soon as the reg is in his mouth (as I'm reaching for the octo), he starts kicking for the surface. I grabbed ahdold of his BC shoulder strap, and he made me literally wrestle him back down even with me before he "calmed down" and would acknowledge any sort of communication.

I'm sure it's not exactly the same thing as a real world OOA, but it sure added a bit of realism and built my confidence in my ability to keep calm. And yes, my instructor was awesome.

All I can think for the real world scenario is that if you can get their BC shoulder strap, you may be pull their shoulders down, keeping their body more horizontal and reducing the effectiveness of kicking up.

In a real situation, a diver in panic mode may only be thinking about the surface. If they have the donated reg in their mouth and are breathing, then fine, hold them down, try to calm them down and make a safe ascent. If they spit out the reg, let them go to the surface and rescue them later.

Sounds like a great instructor though, he probably knew that you had it in you to handle that situation. A lot of open water students would have freaked out, and it may have turned into a real rescue