Doubles wing with a single tank?

[PerroneFord]

You could race a staion wagon in F1 too... doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job. I just don't get why people are willing to dive such a half-assed solution when you could pick up a wing off Ebay for $100. Of COURSE a manufacturer is going to tell you that you can dive a 100# wing. But it's like towing a parachute in the water. I dove last weekend with a guy who was on a rebreather and a 60# bungied wing, and suddenly it all became clear. The bottom of each side of the wing stuck out like a sea anchor, and he got nearly ZERO glide on his frog kick. It was like someone had a hold of his D-Ring and was holding him. Big deal? Maybe, maybe not. Fighting current, you BET it's a big deal.

45 pound lift wings can be great for doubles, depending on what tanks they are, and how negative you are. I use a DSS Torus 45 with my AL80 doubles. Did 3 dives on it today. Finally getting comfortable with having air at the bottom of the wing. Would I dive 95s on it? No. But a friend with 95s does. I think JeffG said he dives 130s with a 40# wing. Works for him, I wouldn't get near it. His choice.

Oh, and anyone that says they can dive a 100# wing and they don't notice a difference has no clue.

A close friend of mine dives 60lb OMS Bungied Wings with single cylinders only. He plans to go doubles in the near future, that's why he bought it. It does look really weird under water, but he doesn't complain about venting problems, nor snag.

I get that smaller wings are more adequate. They'd probably be more comfortable and would cause less snag, but is it really this much of a deal? I can't think of any aspects that make diving single tanks with doubles dangerous. Actually, OMS says it is ok diving 60lb wings with a single tank. They say 100 lb wings can only be used with doubles, but I've also seen somenone in this forum state he did'nt have any problems diving singles with 100lb OMS bungied wings (although it seems kind of a stretch, in my opinion).

What about 45lb wings? Are these considered double wings? Can they lift a set of double 18L steel tanks?

I'm not trying to be inflamatory or anything, I don't even have the diving experience for that. I'm really just curious (don't mean to hijack either, sorry).

 

[JeffG]

When you look at what it cost to evolve into a technical diver... the cost of a backplate... or even a standard BC... is nothin'.

Thats why I laugh everytime I see a "Can I use a doubles wing on a single tank....I want to save money" thread. If thats what they are trying to do, then tech diving is not for them. But let them buy their double tank wing and find out for themself (At least in the short term, it makes them easier to pick out in a crowd.)

 

[JeffG]

I think JeffG said he dives 130s with a 40# wing. Works for him, I wouldn't get near it. His choice.

Yep

 

[SangP]

Remember, i was saying one wing in some cases will work fine, specifically drysuit divers. There wouldn't be any venting issues because you aren;t using the BC.

It seems the industry for the most part has directed us to specialized wings for uses across the board. I don't think that is true.

Tech divers around here use one wing and kinda think singles wings are jokes. Course some of these guys don't even use a bc, just a backpack and ds! I prefer the redundancy.

BTW, in my building days I used a 24 ounce hammer for framing to finish...

What's an LV?

I know what you mean, I have a friend who used to be a commercial diver and it's kidda shocking how he dives. Backpack w/o wing, single hose setup w/o octo and down he goes! :shakehead

Tech divers usually don't use singles cus tech divers usually go very deep with twin tanks or more. The evolution of the bp/w and the jacket shows why there are so many jackets and wing sizes available today. Redunancy is only needed if you don't carry a lift bag or smb but I don't see the point of using a 60 lbs wing for a singles tank when 30lbs is usually more than enough.

SangP

LV = Louis Vuitton = $$$$$$

 

[Fernando]

45 pound lift wings can be great for doubles, depending on what tanks they are, and how negative you are. I use a DSS Torus 45 with my AL80 doubles. Did 3 dives on it today. Finally getting comfortable with having air at the bottom of the wing. Would I dive 95s on it? No. But a friend with 95s does. I think JeffG said he dives 130s with a 40# wing. Works for him, I wouldn't get near it. His choice.

Oh, and anyone that says they can dive a 100# wing and they don't notice a difference has no clue.

Thanks, I see what you mean. So, in your opinion, the 45lb wings would still be overkill for a single tank, but in your case restricted to the use of AL80s, as far as doubles go? Is that correct?

And also, do you guys think all this applies to the OMS wings with retraction bands? Would one have the same problems using oversized wings if they had the retraction bands installed?

 

[PerroneFord]

Thanks, I see what you mean. So, in your opinion, the 45lb wings would still be overkill for a single tank, but in your case restricted to the use of AL80s, as far as doubles go? Is that correct?

And also, do you guys think all this applies to the OMS wings with retraction bands? Would one have the same problems using oversized wings if they had the retraction bands installed?

Tell you what, instead of asking me what overkill is, figure it our for yourself. Here's how.

Step 1. Add up the negative buoyancy of your gear

Tank, regs, light, weightbelt. When you get a number, that is how much your wing would have to lift worst case.

Step 2.

Determine whether your exposure protection makes the problem worse or not. If you have a wetsuit, it makes it worse. The thicker the wetsuit, the worse the problem

Step 3.

Determin how much lift you need. For me:

Tank = 4#
BP = 5"
Lights = 3#
Fins = 3#
5mm shortie wetsuit = 4 pounds lost at depth
Regs = 2#

Add it up, 21 pounds is the lift I must have. I dive a 27# wing which gives plenty reserve.

Double 80s

Tanks = 10#
BP = 5#
Lights = 3#
Fins = 3#
5mm Shortie = 4 pounds
Regs = 4#

Add it up, 29 pounds.. I dive a 45. Overkill. But the shape of the 45 wing I have is optimal for my tanks. So I dive it, and it's generally, nearly empty.


Personally, I wouldn't dive the OMS wings with bands on them if I got them for free. The shape they make when the bands pull them in is horrible after watching them in the water for several hours last week. They are an entaglement hazard in some environments, they are expensive, and they offer resistance to inflating the wing orally, which is counterproductive. I can't think of a single positive use for them. And there are at least 10 wings out there that will do the job better, with fewer problems, and less cost.

 

[Daylonious]

just my 2cf -

I use a 35# wing for single alum tanks, and use a 55# wing for double steels or even when using my single steel 120.

You can always use more wing than you need, just the drawbacks are a little more drag in the water, and perhaps a slight increase in air consumption from tweaking the bladder bouyancy at depth..

D.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Right now I am in the middle of my buyer's analysis paralysis, this time for buying my first BC.
…

The biggest bit of confusion I have right now is which wing will best serve my needs; one LDS says I will need different wings for single vs. double tanks, while the other says I can use a ~55# doubles wing (I think he was showing me the Halcyon evolve) for both single and double tanks; when diving a single tank, the extra-wide wing will simply flap up around the tank, but the only disadvantage of this will be strange looks from other divers (again, more in the Caribbean than the northeast). It does sound as though anything less than a 40# wing up here might not be enough given that my most common diving in the foreseeable future will be a single 120cf steel tank with H-valve and a 40cf slung pony, which I understand should be enough for most Atlantic wreck diving shallower than 130'.

I'd like to rent both and try before, buying, but would also like to here everyone else's thoughts, theories, experiences, and mistakes...

As to what your LDS told you … I think he’s trying to sell you a doubles wing now, knowing full well you’ll be back in for a singles wing later. You won’t be happy diving a singles rig with a doubles wing … it’s simply the wrong tool for the job.

The amount of lift isn’t the issue … my doubles wing has about the same lift than my singles wings … it’s the shape of the wing that is the issue. A singles wing has a narrow center panel, to accommodate the footprint of the cylinder. A doubles wing has a much wider center panel, to accommodate two cylinders. The center panel on the wing is shaped as it is so that your cylinder(s) won’t trap the wing between backplate and cylinder(s), preventing it from inflating fully. By necessity, the panel shape must be different. That’s why “compromise” wings such as a DiveRite Rec wing aren’t really optimal for either job … because the center panel is just a bit too wide for singles and a bit too narrow for most doubles.

The other thing that happens when you try to use a doubles wing for singles is that the outer edges of the wing wrap around the cylinder as you’re diving (we call it “tacoing”) … which has a tendency to trap small portions of air in the wing that are difficult for you to vent. Many people who dive wings in this fashion don’t realize that they’re compensating for that trapped air by carrying more weight than they need to … but they would realize it immediately if they were to do a few dives on a wing that’s properly designed for the singles diving.

So on that note, my response to you is to get a wing that’s designed for the job you want to use it for … singles wings are shaped to be narrower than doubles wings for a reason, and that reason has everything to do with accommodating the shape of the cylinders you’re using it with.

… Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think you need to two wings unless you dive wet AND dive very often with a single tank and often with double tanks.

My bet is, however, if you have a doubles setup you will probably be diving doubles mostly so the larger wing will be fine for those rarer single occasions.

But that's strickly for wetsuit divers. If you dive dry then you need only one wing, a larger doubles like wing. You won't be putting air in it anyway, it's simply for redundancy.

Frankly I think we are victims of marketing for the most part on this single vs doubles question.

Oh my … I’m going to disagree with everything you’ve said here.

First off, diving wet or dry has absolutely nothing to do with wing selection … choice of tank size and configuration, amount of weight used, and whether or not you plan to use stages will determine the optimal choice of wing size and shape.

I would take your bet … my choice of using singles or doubles depends strictly on the dive I am planning. For basic recreational dives, I’ll pick a singles rig. If diving alone, I’ll sling a bottle. If planning a more aggressive dive, I’ll use my doubles. It boils down to selecting the right tool for the job.

Which brings us to wings … they are not for “redundancy”, they are for buoyancy control … that’s why they’re called “buoyancy control devices”. Drysuits are to keep you dry … that’s why they’re called “drysuits”. Sure, you can use a drysuit for buoyancy control … I did so for several hundred dives when I started diving dry … but it’s not the optimal way to go about it. I did so because that’s what both my LDS and the drysuit manufacturer told me to do. After a while I started experimenting with using my drysuit less and my wing more, and discovered that it was simply easier to dive by using the wing for buoyancy control. The reason is obvious. Although a properly weighted diver is using very little air to control buoyancy, the distance that air travels when you shift orientation is several times greater when the air is in a drysuit than it is in a wing. You can find a short article on the topic at http://baue.org/faq/dynamic_instability.html

This isn’t a matter of marketing … when it comes to choosing a properly sized and shaped wing, it really boils down to some simple arithmetic and the application of some basic considerations we all should have learned in our Open Water class. Sure, you can use different tools and get the job done, but it’s not optimal.

I once knew a guy who bragged about the fact that he could play an entire round of golf with a 3-iron … and he could. But most of us would prefer to select the tools we needed to do the job properly …

… Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cecilb63]

Bob,

My point about wings is certainly based on using the DS for buoyancy. So if you don't agree with that then the rest of course is all wrong for you too.

I first started using my BC for buoyancy, I have since switched over to using the DS. I know the tech divers in my area all use the same technique as well, including a former navy man and now current trimix instructor with 30 years experience diving.

I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer on the DS question. Maybe you disagree on that too which is ok. The great part of forums such as this is that those seeking information can get varying opinions to help them make their own decisions. The bad part is where others condemn or insult or laugh at those with different opinions. That can deter those with differing opinions from posting which in effect reduces our pool of ideas. I am probably guilty of this myself though I try to avoid it.

Back to my point, I don't think the name 'drysuit' and the name 'BCD' isolates their function. Regardless, I prefer using a DS at this time, it makes sense to me to minimize task loading. Maybe I will change my opinion in time as you did. I will stay open to it, I don't want to box myself into an idea due to pride.

I actually have played a round with a single club, a 4 iron. Played pretty bad but for me that was par for the course!

Chris