Ethical practice in wreck diving

[imasinker]

I know people that find canon balls and musket balls in the niagara river. Some have even found coins, by searching for them. These are old battle tresures that unless your looking for them will never be found. I single coin on the beach I would pick up, what I do with it is the difference. IMHO to keep these things for your own personal gain isin't what I would do, It doesn't mean thats wrong to keep that coin or canon ball. Most are put on display and if it were me I would give them to the historical society for the same reasons, put on display for others to see. There in my opinion is a difference between that and diving a wreck and picking up plates or bottles near or on the wreck itself. If we all start removing them, the wrecks themselves become a shell of wood/steel and silt. With a loss of life or not, they should be left alone. I wouldn't get any satisfacation seeing them hanging on my wall at home or office, I sure as well wouldn't feel good about selling them to the highest bideer either. I would rather go dive to see them and ejnoy them in thier preserved state. If we all visited the pyramids and grabbed a piece for ourselves, eventually there will be nothing left to go see or marvel over and learn about.Then again that's just my way of thinking about.

 

[NudeDiver]

This technology was applied at the Little Big Horn battle field and had some profound implications on how the battle is now believed to have progressed.

I know what you're trying to say - I really do. But in the end, who won? Skins, or shirts? Does it really matter, in the overall scheme of things, HOW they won? Now, if your bullet should show something like, who REALLY killed Kennedy, or who REALLY killed Lincoln or some other such thing, I'd say that's noteworthy - but in matters of who took what hill in the middle of some battle somewhere - when there isn't much dispute about the overall outcome - well, I can't get excited over such trivialities.

And again - as you noted, you were on private land. Sorry, but in my view, if it is on my land, then its my stuff. If you or the government want it, then you can buy my land - IF I am willing to sell (and yes, I think that E.D. is largely abused, esp. in the last 5 years or so).

 

[seaducer]

I know what you're trying to say - I really do. But in the end, who won? Skins, or shirts? Does it really matter, in the overall scheme of things, HOW they won? Now, if your bullet should show something like, who REALLY killed Kennedy, or who REALLY killed Lincoln or some other such thing, I'd say that's noteworthy ).

That is really subjective. For me, someone with an interest in military history, I would be interested in exactly how battles were conducted. As to who killed what politician? Only relevant if they are still alive to recieve their medals.IMO Perhaps you are interested in all the Kennedy conspiracies and like to watch the 500 documentaries on the subject.

I was going to say that knowing exactly how battles were fought, won and lost saves lives as the generals running battles today use that knowledge in their strategies, but battles today resemble nothing like the ones of even 50 years ago now. Anyway, the subjective value point still stands. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

And again - as you noted, you were on private land. Sorry, but in my view, if it is on my land, then its my stuff.

Sorry, but while it may be your land, it is everyone's history. In fact there may even be laws affecting land owners near historical sites. I know "heritage" houses here in NJ have some laws effecting how you remodel and whatnot.

Of course, nothing is illegal unless you get caught, but that is another thread...

 

[boulderjohn]

I may be misremembering this, but as I recall, the fine for taking something lying lose on a Chuuk wreck, like a bullet, is $250,000.

 

[Bob]

I may be misremembering this, but as I recall, the fine for taking something lying lose on a Chuuk wreck, like a bullet, is $250,000.

And most likely some time in jail... almtree: Bob

 

[imasinker]

And most likely some time in jail... almtree: Bob

far as I am concerned should be!

 

[boulderjohn]

And most likely some time in jail... almtree: Bob

Here's an interesting contrast regarding this thread.

There is one wreck in Chuuk whose main hold used to be filled with bullets, but it now has only a fraction of what was orginally there after decades of looting. It would be easy to pick one up unnoticed and slip it into a BCD pocket. Before we dived that wreck, the operator made sure we understood how very wrong that would be, not just because of the potential huge fine, but also because we would be selfishly detracting from the viewing pleasure of those who came after us. One bullet does not make much of a difference, but as Walter's signature says, no rain drop thinks it is responsible for the flood.

I made sure I touched nothing.

A few weeks later I was diving in Maui, and in a sandy patch I found a WWII bullet, one that looked almost exactly the same as the Chuuk bullets and was probably fired at about the time those ships were sunk.

I picked it up.

In the second case, people are not diving there in the hope of seeing WWII bullets, and since it was a commonly dived site, thousands of people have probably passed by without seeing it. I was not harming the experience of those who came after me.

Of course, I am afraid to show the bullet to anyone who was with me in Chuuk for fear they would never believe my story!

 

[seaducer]

I made sure I touched nothing.

A few weeks later I was diving in Maui, and in a sandy patch I found a WWII bullet, one that looked almost exactly the same as the Chuuk bullets and was probably fired at about the time those ships were sunk.

I picked it up.

In the second case, people are not diving there in the hope of seeing WWII bullets, and since it was a commonly dived site, thousands of people have probably passed by without seeing it. I was not harming the experience of those who came after me.
Of course, I am afraid to show the bullet to anyone who was with me in Chuuk for fear they would never believe my story!

Were you diving with someone from your Chuuk trip? Maybe it fell out of their BCD pocket?

 

[WaterWolf]

Great topic.


As strange as this may sound, I feel diving a wreck where someone lost their life (seaman or fellow diver) makes it a more significant dive and I feel honored to dive such a wreck. I feel it's an opportunity to show my respect. If it wasn't for divers, nobody would ever visit these deep grave sites and that in itself is very sad. The reason we have cemeteries is so people can visit the dead and show their respect to those who have passed. I don't dive wrecks because of that. That would be morbid. But if I know up front about loss of life on a wreck it certainly gives me a different attitude about the dive.


There's nothing like the feeling descending alone on a dark cold deep wreck in Lake Michigan. The gloomy green water makes it feel ghostly and sends chills down my spine. I often think of what those people went through in their last moments and what must have been going through their minds on their final decent. Face it, as humans we are curious about the unknown, and once we know about this topic, it's too late...


As far as taking artifacts... I didn't want to hijack this thread so I started a new thread here:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-pictures-leave-only-bubbles.html#post4072304

WW

 

[NudeDiver]

That is really subjective.

Precisely my point

Just because something may be of interest to one person, or some small group of people, does not necessarily mean that the activities of everyone else should be limited to satisfy that person or that group.

EVERYTHING could be of historical interest and worthy of "protection" to SOMEONE. Why are the interests of some placed ahead of the interests of others? It's all about power and control. If you have it, your interests are protected. If you don't have it, then your interests are not protected - and so why the hell should you care about anyone else's interests?

Sorry, but while it may be your land, it is everyone's history.

History belongs to those who write it

In fact there may even be laws affecting land owners near historical sites. I know "heritage" houses here in NJ have some laws effecting how you remodel and whatnot.

Exactly - and I think it's a shame. If NJ wants to create such rules, then it should buy such properties, at whatever price the current owner wishes to charge. After all, if it is SOOOOOOO important that these rules be created, then surely it is worth whatever money would be required to buy such properties.