Failed BCD pressure relief valve

[halocline]

I suppose it's theoretically possible for an OW student, on his 2nd dive EVER, unexpectedly left alone in 50ft of water with no buoyancy and equipment failure, to remove his gear, repair it, put it back on, and proceed with the dive. I suppose it's also theoretically possible for pigs with wings to come flying out of my butt.

Only slightly less ludicrous is the idea of removing the BC, turning it upside down, and hugging it. There's no way a brand new student could be expected to have that kind of understanding of the details of the BC function. I think the BC in question was weight integrated loaded with 30 lbs, which means guess what happens as soon as you take it off? And this is a student who is on his 2nd dive ever.....

There is a scenario in which an OW student could be alone at depth; let's say there are four students in the class, one instructor, no DMs. Perfectly acceptable by PADI standards. OW 2 uses descents/ascents on a line, and the instructor escorts students up the line one at a time. So, if the OP was the last student to go up, he'd be on the bottom alone while the instructor was taking the third up the line. It sounds like the OPV went at exactly the wrong time.

It certainly is possible that the BC was poorly maintained, but it's also possible that it was just bad luck. It would be advisable if the bottom was not visible from the surface to only do the dive with a DM so that the students are NEVER without immediate access to someone with some experience for assistance. This is especially true in limited visibility. If there's a fault to be found here, that's it. Conditions probably dictated using a DM to directly supervise students not under the immediate control of the instructor.

As far as the weighting goes, it does sound like the OP as overweighted, but realistically OW students are almost always overweighted, especially in colder water. It's the only way they can get down. If this offends some of our pedagogical purists, tough. It's reality. There is a learning curve to diving and especially buoyancy control, like it or not, and OW 2 means the students are near the very beginning of that curve.

It is better, given the necessity to overweight students, to split up some of the weight so that the BC and student are more balanced. They will have to remove the unit at depth during the course, and if there's an immediate 30 lb difference in buoyancy, it's almost impossible to maintain any sort of control.

 

[Whatgoesdown]

There is a scenario in which an OW student could be alone at depth; let's say there are four students in the class, one instructor, no DMs. Perfectly acceptable by PADI standards. OW 2 uses descents/ascents on a line, and the instructor escorts students up the line one at a time. So, if the OP was the last student to go up, he'd be on the bottom alone while the instructor was taking the third up the line. It sounds like the OPV went at exactly the wrong time.

You cannot leave students underwater on their own under any circumstances. PADI standards do not allow it and I don't know of any other agency that does. You take one up a line, you take them all up.

As far as the weighting goes, it does sound like the OP as overweighted, but realistically OW students are almost always overweighted, especially in colder water. It's the only way they can get down. If this offends some of our pedagogical purists, tough. It's reality. There is a learning curve to diving and especially buoyancy control, like it or not, and OW 2 means the students are near the very beginning of that curve.

Assuming that this is right, and I think if you put this on the I2I board a lot of instructors would argue that proper weighting is taught in confined water and should be a given by OW, we do not overweight students to the point that they cannot swim themselves to the surface with an empty BC.

It's a situation which was not inherently dangerous in itself but it may have been compounded by the instructor's choices. The buddy system broke down, the OP was apparently overwieghted and we may speculate that a certified assistant would have been prudent too.

 

[TGreene]

Only slightly less ludicrous is the idea of removing the BC, turning it upside down, and hugging it. There's no way a brand new student could be expected to have that kind of understanding of the details of the BC function. I think the BC in question was weight integrated loaded with 30 lbs, which means guess what happens as soon as you take it off? And this is a student who is on his 2nd dive ever.....

Thank you for thinking that we're all idiots!

Oddly enough, some of us actually DO know exactly how our BC's work. When I first bought mine, I completely tore it all down an put it back together a couple of times. I'm a n00b and I ralize that according to YOUR standards that I'm not supposed to know anything about anything, and especially when it comes to problem solving, but that's a cross that I'll just have to bear!

I had 1 Instructor and 2 DM's tell me that I would need #18 in my pockets since I'm 5'9", #170, was wearing a 5mm suit and diving my AL80. Since I'm weight integrated, they then made me add a belt w/ #2 on the back, putting me at #20... I freakin sank like a rock, came back up, swam to the dock, and removed some weight. This was on the first day for dives 1 and 2. On the 2nd day when I wasn't wearing the belt, I added #16 (2-5's, 2-2's and 2-1's in trim pockets) and I had near perfect weighting and much better bouyancy control. FWIW: I did my pool sessions w/ my 1mm skin because the pool was 81*.

Is a student supposed to be "wise enough" to alert others of a leaking 1st stage, or are we supposed to just sit back, shut up and pay attention..?

-Tim

 

[Hetland]

Thank you for thinking that we're all idiots!

Oddly enough, some of us actually DO know exactly how our BC's work. When I first bought mine, I completely tore it all down an put it back together a couple of times. I'm a n00b and I ralize that according to YOUR standards that I'm not supposed to know anything about anything, and especially when it comes to problem solving, but that's a cross that I'll just have to bear!

Your living room is a far sight different from the conditions at 50ft. To think that breaking down a bc in your house is the same as breaking it down underwater, while you are depending upon it for your life, is a mistake. If a SINGLE thing goes wrong, your best result could be a chamber ride, more likely, you will have lungs that won't work anymore.

I had 1 Instructor and 2 DM's tell me that I would need #18 in my pockets since I'm 5'9", #170, was wearing a 5mm suit and diving my AL80. Since I'm weight integrated, they then made me add a belt w/ #2 on the back, putting me at #20... I freakin sank like a rock, came back up, swam to the dock, and removed some weight. This was on the first day for dives 1 and 2. On the 2nd day when I wasn't wearing the belt, I added #16 (2-5's, 2-2's and 2-1's in trim pockets) and I had near perfect weighting and much better bouyancy control. FWIW: I did my pool sessions w/ my 1mm skin because the pool was 81*.

Totally irrelevant. Your weight requirements will change for many reasons, including your comfort level in the water. Your weight requirements can also vary significantly from another diver that is exactly 5'9" and 170#.

Is a student supposed to be "wise enough" to alert others of a leaking 1st stage, or are we supposed to just sit back, shut up and pay attention..?

Not a part of this discussion. I will say this though: Removing your bc underwater is a far, far more serious maneuver than I think you understand. Could you do it safely? Probably. Would I do it for any reason other than correcting an immediately life threatening situation? No! Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

 

[TGreene]

Your living room is a far sight different from the conditions at 50ft. To think that breaking down a bc in your house is the same as breaking it down underwater, while you are depending upon it for your life, is a mistake. If a SINGLE thing goes wrong, your best result could be a chamber ride, more likely, you will have lungs that won't work anymore.

Being an avid trad climber (formerly), I'm used to having to make split second problem solving decisions while hanging from my fingers from several hundred feet above ground, while carrying an extra #35-40 pounds of gear over my shoulders that is trying to pull me back to Earth... You should try it sometime.

Totally irrelevant. Your weight requirements will change for many reasons, including your comfort level in the water. Your weight requirements can also vary significantly from another diver that is exactly 5'9" and 170#.

True, with comfort level being the key to this discussion!

Not a part of this discussion. I will say this though: Removing your bc underwater is a far, far more serious maneuver than I think you understand. Could you do it safely? Probably. Would I do it for any reason other than correcting an immediately life threatening situation? No! Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

So you're saying to just sit back, shut up and pay attention rather than putting your mind to work to thwart a potential "situation"..?

-Tim

 

[Hallmac]

You are completely wacked if you think this is good advice for a diver who is not even certified yet, to perform solo, after his instructor essentially abandoned him on a certification dive.

Wacked? I have yet to certify a student that has not removed and replace their weight integrated BC in the open water Environment. So far as I can tell every agency requires it. Then again, I have watched what others call a remove and replace too.

I suppose it's theoretically possible for an OW student, on his 2nd dive EVER, unexpectedly left alone in 50ft of water with no buoyancy and equipment failure, to remove his gear, repair it, put it back on, and proceed with the dive. I suppose it's also theoretically possible for pigs with wings to come flying out of my butt.

I bet that is a sight to see.... I am not sure which I find more disturbing, the fact that you don't understand a simple skill or what you can imagine happening to you. However, I think I need party with you I bet you are a blast.

Only slightly less ludicrous is the idea of removing the BC, turning it upside down, and hugging it. There's no way a brand new student could be expected to have that kind of understanding of the details of the BC function. I think the BC in question was weight integrated loaded with 30 lbs, which means guess what happens as soon as you take it off? And this is a student who is on his 2nd dive ever.....

I guess it would blow your mind to see our students take them off in mid water, ride them like a pony and never touch the pool surface or bottom. That is too bad, it is a good time.

They will have to remove the unit at depth during the course, and if there's an immediate 30 lb difference in buoyancy, it's almost impossible to maintain any sort of control.

What remove the unit at depth? There is a technique that will keep them stable and is easy to do.

Your living room is a far sight different from the conditions at 50ft. To think that breaking down a bc in your house is the same as breaking it down underwater, while you are depending upon it for your life, is a mistake. If a SINGLE thing goes wrong, your best result could be a chamber ride, more likely, you will have lungs that won't work anymore.

You are correct in the conditions statement.
Is the rest of the quote what you really believe? I am sure it did not come out right. But just to show how wacked I am...... let's look at it shall we.
"While you are depending upon it for your life" ummm, it was already broke and he did not die, I am confused. Must not have been depending upon it I guess. As to the chamber ride and lungs that won't work.... Why do we teach the PROPER way to do an emergency swimming ascent, or the Emergency Buoyant Ascent.... The techniques work. They have been done many times in the history of scuba.. Quit with the you are going to die stuff. That is a worst case scenario and not a best case.

I will say this though: Removing your bc underwater is a far, far more serious maneuver than I think you understand. Could you do it safely? Probably. Would I do it for any reason other than correcting an immediately life threatening situation? No! Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

Moving to an underwater environment is far, far more serious than many understand. That is why they need training. Training and not Tricks. I am definitely in the minority here with what constitutes dangerous or unthinkable skills. I can live with that and so can my students.

 

[Hetland]

Being an avid trad climber (formerly), I'm used to having to make split second problem solving decisions while hanging from my fingers from several hundred feet above ground, while carrying an extra #35-40 pounds of gear over my shoulders that is trying to pull me back to Earth... You should try it sometime.

But that's not where we are! You are forgetting that underwater you have regular gravity and reverse gravity (buoyancy). You also depend upon a tank and reg for every breath. The tank and reg are strapped to the thing you want to take off underwater, where it will presumably sink at the same time you and your wetsuit will want to rapidly ascend. If you're 50+ feet you're doing all of this drunk or buzzed on nitrogen too. You advocate doing this for basically no reason, as it doesn't really solve the problem. The diver could just as easily invert himself slightly, whereby the air in his bc would be trapped, and he could still do a save ascent without untethering himself from his life support. Even this would have been unnecessary had he been properly weighted.

Being an avid trad climber (formerly), I'm used to having to make split second problem solving decisions while hanging from my fingers from several hundred feet above ground, while carrying an extra #35-40 pounds of gear over my shoulders that is trying to pull me back to Earth... You should try it sometime.

I could entertain you for hours with war stories of extreme things I've done and seen, but none of it will keep me from hurting myself underwater if I do things I don't fully understand for reasons that make doing it unnecessary in the first place.

So you're saying to just sit back, shut up and pay attention rather than putting your mind to work to thwart a potential "situation"..?

No, I'm saying: "sit back, shut up, pay attention AND put your mind to work to thwart a potential "situation". Dive your training and comfort level, and don't remove your life support gear unless it is the last resort. The very last resort.

I'm just kidding about the "shut up" part above though

 

[Hetland]

Originally Posted by Hetland:
Your living room is a far sight different from the conditions at 50ft. To think that breaking down a bc in your house is the same as breaking it down underwater, while you are depending upon it for your life, is a mistake. If a SINGLE thing goes wrong, your best result could be a chamber ride, more likely, you will have lungs that won't work anymore.

You are correct in the conditions statement.
Is the rest of the quote what you really believe? I am sure it did not come out right. But just to show how wacked I am...... let's look at it shall we.
"While you are depending upon it for your life" ummm, it was already broke and he did not die, I am confused. Must not have been depending upon it I guess. As to the chamber ride and lungs that won't work.... Why do we teach the PROPER way to do an emergency swimming ascent, or the Emergency Buoyant Ascent.... The techniques work. They have been done many times in the history of scuba.. Quit with the you are going to die stuff. That is a worst case scenario and not a best case.

Originally Posted by Hetland:
I will say this though: Removing your bc underwater is a far, far more serious maneuver than I think you understand. Could you do it safely? Probably. Would I do it for any reason other than correcting an immediately life threatening situation? No! Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

Moving to an underwater environment is far, far more serious than many understand. That is why they need training. Training and not Tricks. I am definitely in the minority here with what constitutes dangerous or unthinkable skills. I can live with that and so can my students.

I didn't say that his life depended on an inflator. I assumed I was communicating clearly enough that the reader would understand that I was talking about the system (b/c, tank, reg). When you remove your b/c, you are removing your connection to your life support system, and possibly your weights depending on your gear configuration.

overweighted OW student +
7mm suit +
weight-integrated bc +
removing bc +
losing contact with bc =
RAPID ascent.

I'm not saying he will lose contact with his bc, I'm saying the possibility of that happening makes bc removal an option that should be reserved for situations where no other prudent action will do.

I also understand the "PROPER way to do an emergency swimming ascent, or the Emergency Buoyant Ascent" and that "The techniques work. They have been done many times in the history of scuba." I also understand that people (including experienced instructors) still hold their breath, and still get hurt and die. We're talking about an OW student, who unintentionally loses contact with his system doing a totally unnecessary "cowboy" move because some people on the internet said it was a solution to a specific problem.

You're basically telling him to take his seatbelt off because his turn signal doesn't work

 

[Thalassamania]

Wacked? I have yet to certify a student that has not removed and replace their weight integrated BC in the open water Environment. So far as I can tell every agency requires it. Then again, I have watched what others call a remove and replace too.

In the tropics with warm water and a small amount of weight in the BC, sure but in colder water, at depth, with a full suit, it can be a big problem.

I suppose it's theoretically possible for an OW student, on his 2nd dive EVER, unexpectedly left alone in 50ft of water with no buoyancy and equipment failure, to remove his gear, repair it, put it back on, and proceed with the dive. I suppose it's also theoretically possible for pigs with wings to come flying out of my butt.

Rather not possible, theoretically or otherwise for the pigs, unlikely for your average student, but not impossible for some.

Only slightly less ludicrous is the idea of removing the BC, turning it upside down, and hugging it. There's no way a brand new student could be expected to have that kind of understanding of the details of the BC function. I think the BC in question was weight integrated loaded with 30 lbs, which means guess what happens as soon as you take it off? And this is a student who is on his 2nd dive ever.....

While NetDoc does this sort of exercise with his stuents all the time, the 30 lbs. makes it a bit different (I think).

There is a scenario in which an OW student could be alone at depth; let's say there are four students in the class, one instructor, no DMs. Perfectly acceptable by PADI standards. OW 2 uses descents/ascents on a line, and the instructor escorts students up the line one at a time. So, if the OP was the last student to go up, he'd be on the bottom alone while the instructor was taking the third up the line. It sounds like the OPV went at exactly the wrong time.

Hm ... I'd never o that, that exercise requires two, staff members (to my way of thinking).

It certainly is possible that the BC was poorly maintained, but it's also possible that it was just bad luck. It would be advisable if the bottom was not visible from the surface to only do the dive with a DM so that the students are NEVER without immediate access to someone with some experience for assistance. This is especially true in limited visibility. If there's a fault to be found here, that's it. Conditions probably dictated using a DM to directly supervise students not under the immediate control of the instructor.

At least.

As far as the weighting goes, it does sound like the OP as overweighted, but realistically OW students are almost always overweighted, especially in colder water. It's the only way they can get down. If this offends some of our pedagogical purists, tough. It's reality. There is a learning curve to diving and especially buoyancy control, like it or not, and OW 2 means the students are near the very beginning of that curve.

Only because they get so little pool time. Does this not fly in the face of the "mastery" required by PADI standards?

It is better, given the necessity to overweight students, to split up some of the weight so that the BC and student are more balanced. They will have to remove the unit at depth during the course, and if there's an immediate 30 lb difference in buoyancy, it's almost impossible to maintain any sort of control.

It is better still to have a student set up so that when they remove their tank their no further from neutral than the range of comfortable buoyancy shift they have in their breathing cycle.

You cannot leave students underwater on their own under any circumstances. PADI standards do not allow it and I don't know of any other agency that does. You take one up a line, you take them all up.

A point of contention that I' like to see resolved, in this case though the instructor was dealing with an emerency so whilst badly unprepared for it, all bets are off.

Assuming that this is right, and I think if you put this on the I2I board a lot of instructors would argue that proper weighting is taught in confined water and should be a given by OW, we do not overweight students to the point that they cannot swim themselves to the surface with an empty BC.

You're in Grand Cayman and not dealing with heavy wet suits. It makes a big difference.

It's a situation which was not inherently dangerous in itself but it may have been compounded by the instructor's choices. The buddy system broke down, the OP was apparently overwieghted and we may speculate that a certified assistant would have been prudent too.

I could not agree more.

Your living room is a far sight different from the conditions at 50ft.

Only sometimes.

To think that breaking down a bc in your house is the same as breaking it down underwater, while you are depending upon it for your life, is a mistake. If a SINGLE thing goes wrong, your best result could be a chamber ride, more likely, you will have lungs that won't work anymore.

Without saying, "It's impossible!" I' have to agree.

Totally irrelevant. Your weight requirements will change for many reasons, including your comfort level in the water. Your weight requirements can also vary significantly from another diver that is exactly 5'9" and 170#.

Yes.

Not a part of this discussion. I will say this though: Removing your bc underwater is a far, far more serious maneuver than I think you understand. Could you do it safely? Probably. Would I do it for any reason other than correcting an immediately life threatening situation? No! Just because you can do something, does not mean you should.

Remove and replace a weight integrated BC with 30 lbs in it in mid water? I'd call that a challange at best.

Being an avid trad climber (formerly), I'm used to having to make split second problem solving decisions while hanging from my fingers from several hundred feet above ground, while carrying an extra #35-40 pounds of gear over my shoulders that is trying to pull me back to Earth... You should try it sometime.

Now, while hanging there, take your pack off an put it back on.

But that's not where we are! You are forgetting that underwater you have regular gravity and reverse gravity (buoyancy). You also depend upon a tank and reg for every breath. The tank and reg are strapped to the thing you want to take off underwater, where it will presumably sink at the same time you and your wetsuit will want to rapidly ascend. If you're 50+ feet you're doing all of this drunk or buzzed on nitrogen too. You advocate doing this for basically no reason, as it doesn't really solve the problem. The diver could just as easily invert himself slightly, whereby the air in his bc would be trapped, and he could still do a save ascent without untethering himself from his life support. Even this would have been unnecessary had he been properly weighted.

Pretty hard situation, with the diver floating up at 30 lbs and the tank sinking at 30 lbs. that's 60 lbs difference that needs to be overcome while performing the task ... not easy by any stretch.

I didn't say that his life depended on an inflator. I assumed I was communicating clearly enough that the reader would understand that I was talking about the system (b/c, tank, reg). When you remove your b/c, you are removing your connection to your life support system, and possibly your weights depending on your gear configuration.

overweighted OW student +
7mm suit +
weight-integrated bc +
removing bc +
losing contact with bc =
RAPID ascent.

I'm not saying he will lose contact with his bc, I'm saying the possibility of that happening makes bc removal an option that should be reserved for situations where no other prudent action will do.

I also understand the "PROPER way to do an emergency swimming ascent, or the Emergency Buoyant Ascent" and that "The techniques work. They have been done many times in the history of scuba." I also understand that people (including experienced instructors) still hold their breath, and still get hurt and die. We're talking about an OW student, who unintentionally loses contact with his system doing a totally unnecessary "cowboy" move because some people on the internet said it was a solution to a specific problem.

You're basically telling him to take his seatbelt off because his turn signal doesn't work

I have to agree. While I think that you overstate the problem by a little, you're still right.

 

[halocline]

Thank you for thinking that we're all idiots!

Oddly enough, some of us actually DO know exactly how our BC's work. When I first bought mine, I completely tore it all down an put it back together a couple of times. I'm a n00b and I ralize that according to YOUR standards that I'm not supposed to know anything about anything, and especially when it comes to problem solving, but that's a cross that I'll just have to bear!

-Tim

While I seem to have raised some ire, for which I apologize, I certainly said absolutely nothing about students being "idiots" or "knowing nothing about anything." Where did you get that one?

I have a feeling that you're an exceptional OW student. You certainly seem to be proud of your abilities, and I'm sure it's justified. I'm not being sarcastic! Let me re-phrase.

Of the hundreds of OW students I have observed, very few if any would be comfortable removing their BC underwater, dismantling and repairing the OPV, and replacing it, all the while alone on the bottom on their second OW dive. An equally (or almost equally) few number would understand that they could turn the BC over so that the leaking valve was on the bottom, then inflate and ascend, again on OW dive 2. Now, if you fit into that tiny group of exceptionally talented and resourceful students, terrific! But it's hardly anything that is appropriate to expect from students in that situation.

In this case, BTW, if the student had removed his BC with 30 lbs of weight in the pockets, he probably would have been upside down hanging onto the thing.

Regarding the over weighting situation, sure you do want to get the weighting right in the pool so that students are not over weighted on the OW dives. But I suspect in this case, like many, the pool work was done with none or minimal exposure suit, which means that OW is the first experience students have in trying to get down wearing a 7 mil farmer john. That's a lot different.

Regarding the standards, I'm happy to stand corrected, but I bet that this instructor would argue that he was close enough to all the students to have control of them. (obviously he was not) I have seen instructors take students up and down lines one by one on many occasions. The CESA is an example of that. Thinking about this situation, though, I wonder where the OP's buddy was?

Once again, I apologize to anyone who took offense.