Failed Open Water Dive Update

[Hawkwood]

.... I would not suggest a drysuit to an OW student personally seems like if bouyancy is an issue in a pool a drysuit will only compound the issue.

Doing your Open Water dives in a dry suit is very common in many locations and is often preferable if dry suit diving is the "norm" in those locations.

 

[SubMariner]

Doing your Open Water dives in a dry suit is very common in many locations and is often preferable if dry suit diving is the "norm" in those locations.

Agreed. Many Instructors in temperate waters make this option available to their students; the extra training is incorporated into the regular OW program fairly easily.

That being said, it all comes down to the type of diving the OP is going to do. If they are definitely going to be doing local diving, then dry is the way to go. However, if their goal is to dive in warmer climes, I would suggest getting a referral to finish their course in a vacation destination of their choice.

FWIW,

 

[Lead_carrier]

Are you in Portland? There are a couple of shops up here in the Seattle area that will teach open water in a dry suit. The advantage of that is that it's easy to do pool work in the dry suit -- you just wear thin stuff under it. Then you can put on the thick undergarment for open water.

I don't know of a shop that will let students wear their open water wetsuits in the pool. For one thing, they ARE hot for 84 degree water, and for another thing, it degrades the neoprene quickly, and those thick suits aren't cheap. I wish it were possible, because our students have to make a huge leap from bathing suits in the pool to heavy wetsuits and tons of weight for OW, but it is what it is. That's part of the reason we try to encourage our students who are going to want to dive locally to certify dry..

I really think people should realize there is a difference between "wetsuit", as in simple 3, 5 or even 7 mil suit, and "wetsuit" for PNW diving, which is a 7 mil suit with a 7 mil corewarmer, or 14 mm of neoprene on the core, and at least at our shop, an attached, integrated hood. It's not easy to flush those suits with water -- they're rather designed to avoid it.

Could a student spend a few minutes in the pool in such an outfit? I would imagine of course. Would it be long enough to make a difference? I don't know. Would it be hard on the gear? After watching my wetsuit booties disintegrate from just the occasional pool sessions I do in them, I would imagine so. Is it expensive for a shop to replace that much neoprene? Yeah.

As much as I think it would do some students good to dive their heavy exposure protection before going to cold water, I do totally respect the reasons the shop chooses not to allow them to do it. I do tell people it's a good idea to put their wetsuit and BC on, with weights in, the night before the OW dives, so that at least the process of getting into it, and how much it all weighs, will not come as an unpleasant surprise the next morning. I don't think many people bother, though.

I respect the shop owners right to not allow their wetsuits to be used in a pool but I personally don't respect the shop because of it. I can't imagine a shop not letting their students not wear and require their wetsuits to be used in at least one session of their OW pool sessions. I totally agree that the pool is harder on the neoprene but if they're rinsed and dried immeadiately use, they will still last quite a while. Our shop did have to start replacing some of our suits after 14 years, most of the reason was damage from tearing the seams. It seems that some students wouldn't believe that they needed to wear a large instead of a medium. And they are the "PNW" suits.

I don't. The students should have at least some training using the same exposure protection they'll be using in OW.
If the shop can't manage to do this, maybe they should stick to tropical referrals. It's not fair to the student to have them play in a pool in a bathing suit, then have them show up at OW dives and dress them like The Michelin Man.

SCUBA Training is about training the student, not making it convenient for the training facility.

flots.

I agree flots, after my first couple of pool sessions I made it a requirement for students to wear whatever they would be wearing for checkout. They found out and we could correct weighting issues, work on bouyancy differences and they could get used to the feel of the wetsuit. The only time it ever caused any problem was one student listened to his brother instead of me and added about 6 lbs extra to his weight belt before checkout. Fortunately, he didn't get hurt on his first decent but it was kind of humourus to see him bounce when he hit the platform on the bottom.

 

[TSandM]

I went back and reread your original thread, and although I am obviously armchair quarterbacking, I don't see a reason why you couldn't retry your OW dives here in the PNW. Now, obviously, I could be wrong . . . if your instructors have identified you as a person who handles stress poorly or is much given to panic, they may feel that a less challenging environment for OW is really necessary to get you started. But you really did have an awful setup for your dives the first time, with bad weather and a very difficult (and in my opinion, inappropriate) site. There were also some gear-related issues that could be handled much better (we don't make our students wear weight belts in OW, if the weight they require will fit in their weight-integrated BCs).

I would talk to the shop again about doing a private checkout dive. It might be necessary to travel up to the Sound with a shop class, but surely they have a single instructor who could be detailed to work with you? It might cost extra, depending on what your original agreement with the shop was -- when you book a "private" class with our shop, that includes one-on-one in OW, but perhaps yours did not. It sounds as though better weather, an easier access point, and more attention paid to proper weighting at the beginning, might be all you need for a successful experience.

 

[dbulmer]

It sounds as though better weather, an easier access point, and more attention paid to proper weighting at the beginning, might be all you need for a successful experience.

Aside from the weather which is beyond anyone's control, that is stuff the shop should have got right in the first place !

The op goes back to the shop and they still cock up the instruction.

Went through skills at the pool. My instructor agreed my skills were fine, that I shouldn't have any trouble with open water, that my difficulty is my unfamiliarity with the exposure gear. Even so, the only solution is for me to go to a warm water destination for open water dives and to get "more experience".

I actually managed to hover this last time. I moved up and down a bit in the water column, but at least I didn't bob up to the surface the way I did the last time. Oh, and I was upside down. My instructor suggested I was over-weighted..

1) So skills are fine but the instructor did not appear to do anything to correct the overweighting!
2) Unfamiliarity with the gear - so schedule a little time to help the student!


I think the OP is better off without this shop - a different shop either locally or somewhere warm would be preferable. I did my initial drysuit training in a 27C pool with a 200g undersuit and yes it was warm but dangerous it was not. GETTING OUT OF THE POOL is always an option

 

[TSandM]

I agree -- I think the shop has made quite a few errors. My post was simply addressing the shop's conclusion that this person needs to go to warm water to get certified. I don't think that is true, from the data we have.

OP, I wish you were up here in Seattle, so we could talk to you and see if we could put together a more positive open water experience for you. I don't think it would be that difficult.

 

[RJHinPDX]

I went back and reread your original thread, and although I am obviously armchair quarterbacking, I don't see a reason why you couldn't retry your OW dives here in the PNW. Now, obviously, I could be wrong . . . if your instructors have identified you as a person who handles stress poorly or is much given to panic, they may feel that a less challenging environment for OW is really necessary to get you started. But you really did have an awful setup for your dives the first time, with bad weather and a very difficult (and in my opinion, inappropriate) site. There were also some gear-related issues that could be handled much better (we don't make our students wear weight belts in OW, if the weight they require will fit in their weight-integrated BCs).

I would talk to the shop again about doing a private checkout dive. It might be necessary to travel up to the Sound with a shop class, but surely they have a single instructor who could be detailed to work with you? It might cost extra, depending on what your original agreement with the shop was -- when you book a "private" class with our shop, that includes one-on-one in OW, but perhaps yours did not. It sounds as though better weather, an easier access point, and more attention paid to proper weighting at the beginning, might be all you need for a successful experience.

I agree with the points you make, but at this point I must say I have lost confidence in this instructor and the shop. I think I will be better off with someone else.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2013 at 06:53 PM ----------

I agree -- I think the shop has made quite a few errors. My post was simply addressing the shop's conclusion that this person needs to go to warm water to get certified. I don't think that is true, from the data we have.

OP, I wish you were up here in Seattle, so we could talk to you and see if we could put together a more positive open water experience for you. I don't think it would be that difficult.

Thank you! Wish we could work something out. It is a bit of a distance, but it might be possible with some planning. My job leaves me free for seven days every other week. Where do you do your open water dives?

 

[bpotkin]

I was also in a 7mil rental full wetsuit for my pool work in OW. It makes sense that you would want to use the "EXACT" equipment
for your pool work and for your open water dives. For myself, the wetsuit, hood and gloves were the equipment that took the most
getting used to.

 

[TSandM]

We do our open water dives at the Coves at Alki. It's a mild slope of round stones, and you don't have to walk very far. And we let OW students use integrated weights if their BCs are set up for them. AND we do a careful weight check at the beginning, to make sure people aren't grossly overweighted.

If you really would like to do this, e-mail my husband at pgr@tsandm.com -- he's the instructor and I divemaster for him. He's retired, so schedules are pretty easy if you have weekday availability. And we have a guest room for people who are cat-tolerant.

 

[Vicksburg Diver]

To the original poster, you got some bad intel/advice.
:dropmouth: