Flying and Diving, bring me up to speed

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James Goddard once bubbled...
....obviously Charlie is so worked up about a statement MHK made 6 years ago that he is till ready to bash him for it at any opportunity.
James
So... in a discussion of differing time-to-fly recommendations I call attention to the oft repeated statements of a well known GUE instructor where he clearly does not believe that there is any need for a waiting period before flying. This is bashing?

At some point, your posts did indeed irritate me, particularly when they are offbase. Another reading comprehension problem: those are current statements, not of 6 years ago. The particular links I provided are from 2001 and 2002. I didn't provide a 2003 link, but did quote his 3/31/03 post of "DAN's recommendation about 24 or 12 hours is BS, I just did a US Navy study at DAN, they know better, but they just don't publish it.."

I'm hoping that MHK will come along and give us some info on the unpublished US Navy / DAN study that he just did.

GUE/WKPP/DIR deco theories are unique in some ways. For example, George Irvine, head of WKPP has stated that the 2nd dive should be DEEPER, not shallower. Often, the most useful information comes from discussion of this sort of anomalous statement.
 
Charlie99 once bubbled...
So... in a discussion of differing time-to-fly recommendations I call attention to the oft repeated statements of a well known GUE instructor where he clearly does not believe that there is any need for a waiting period before flying. This is bashing?

The main conversation you brought up was from 1997. MHK is not invovled with this conversation. Yes, you are bashing him. And doing it behind his back. Why can't he have his opinion and you have yours?

At some point, your posts did indeed irritate me, particularly when they are offbase.

And for that I aplolgize. Sometimes it is hard to argue a point without offending somebody. But understand that my point is not thet you should FIAD, but that you should read ALL information you can find but make up your own mind.

I'm hoping that MHK will come along and give us some info on the unpublished US Navy / DAN study that he just did.

Me too.

GUE/WKPP/DIR deco theories are unique in some ways. For example, George Irvine, head of WKPP has stated that the 2nd dive should be DEEPER, not shallower. Often, the most useful information comes from discussion of this sort of anomalous statement.

Without a doubt GUE/WKPP/DIR is flying in the face of convention. To me that is a good thing. I am not a DIR diver but I love to see the "establisment" challanged.

James
 
xoomboy once bubbled...
Anything wrong with diving soon after you get off the plane? Say I arrived at my vacation destination around noon. Would it be a bad idea to go for a night dive?
Matt
http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/faq/faq.asp?faqid=56
The above link is to DAN's view on the subject. Bottom line is DAN encourages you to not fly and then dive but to rest and hydrate. Dehydration and fatique both being DCI factors.

The article reads in part:.-- indeed, some data suggests that there are more accidents on the first day of a planned multiday dive trip. Of the 88 cases reviewed from the Caribbean for 1994, 33 -- or 37.5 percent -- occurred on the first day. The remainder occurred on days two through seven.
 
... because I'm off diving in a few minutes ... :wink:

You posted MHK's quote.
Yes, it's the original quotes that make you sit up and notice. To be fair, I have to say I make the same assessment as Charlie, it seems as if MHK is proposing flying straight after diving provided all in-water decompression is properly done.
But then again I'm a Darwinist. If someone reads a statement on usenet after being taught otherwise and accepts it without doing any other personal research, then evolution is just helping the rest of us out.
I certainly agree people should verify everything they read on the net. Then again, you know many don't but run with the "majority" view on a particular board, even if the opinions fly in the face of conventional wisdom or written consensus in standard textbooks and from mainstream recreational agencies. I even dare venture that some people expressly argue the merits of these cases due to the latter situation ... :wink:

Incidentally, the use of Darwin's great Theory of Evolution to seriously argue any form of human endeavour is misguided at best. Evolution is a very slow process. Most people who argue such short timescales are really more onto Herbert Spencer and his Lamarckian influences ... Just an aside.
He justified it by stating that the GUE diving proceedures are far different than other agencies.
Yes, indeed. That does however severely limit their universal appeal to recreational divers.
That they treat every dive as a deco dive and do them using modified tables.
Ah, but careful! Many of their modified tables are in fact very aggressive in my mind. Their usefulness to the general population is therefore - IMHO - less, not more, than that used by most recreational divers today.
That they have strict physical guidlines for divers, while the DAN estimates are based on more of a worst case scenario of physical health.
And this is indeed why most readers should carefully follow DAN guidelines. But beware, the aspect of the 'principles set by a community of survivors' is not fully understood by the DIR community and their adepts. The Dervay et al study is not the first one discussing the "never form bubbles" aspect of decompression, I've heard this term from local hyperbaric researchers before (though never seen it so graphically!). Remember, if you get DCI diving to their methodology, you're out of the WKPP exploration program as a push diver! The actual consequences of this for the recreational DIR dive community as a whole is still not understood by many. This is perhaps the single biggest problem I have intellectually with that community, and that's in no way to denigrate their many achievements in cave diving.
Was refering to the fact that they fully admit they do not have enough information and that the 12 hours is a best guess.
But this is a best guess very different from flying straight after diving ...
MHK doesn't and that is his choice.
Although he shares this personal choice very liberally on forums to divers he doesn't know. That's all. And that's what many have taken exception to.
Without a doubt GUE/WKPP/DIR is flying in the face of convention. To me that is a good thing. I am not a DIR diver but I love to see the "establisment" challanged.
I think this holds a lot of the appeal that this community has on the Internet. Many people like the idea that they are somehow privy to "secret" and somehow "magic" information which the establishment for some obscure reason withholds from the diving community. I don't buy this myself for a variety of reasons. And to be honest, the "establishment" view on many boards, if you look at the many concurring posts by the very active posters, nowadays often very is the GUE/WKPP/DIR view ... :rolleyes: :wink: :D
Often, the most useful information comes from discussion of this sort of anomalous statement.
I would actually argue, invariably so ...
 
James Goddard once bubbled...
The main conversation you brought up was from 1997. MHK is not invovled with this conversation. Yes, you are bashing him. And doing it behind his back.
We don't seem to inhabit the same universe, James.

The links and quotes I provided are from 2001,2002, and 2003. None from 1997. 1) Which 1997 conversation do you refer to? 2) If somehow I did include a 1997 reference, why is that material considering that I also provided links that show this is still his current thinking?

You feel that posting links to his statements, with little or no comment on them, is bashing. I don't.

You think that posting on a board where both he, many of his students, and his fellow instructors hang out as doing something behind his back. I don't.

If you stop your off topic rants, we might have a discussion of the different theories of fly-after-dive, and why people believe what they do.
 
pasley once bubbled...

http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/faq/faq.asp?faqid=56
The above link is to DAN's view on the subject. Bottom line is DAN encourages you to not fly and then dive but to rest and hydrate. Dehydration and fatique both being DCI factors.
Most of this discussion has been about flying immediately after diving, not the other way around.

Below is a short summary of what I have seen published and posted:

DAN, PADI, and most other dive cert agencies recommend a minimum of 12 hours between diving and flying, with longer periods recommended after multiple days/dives and deco dives.

NOAA has a specific fly after dive table based upon the highest pressure group reached in the previous 24 hours. For a dive within NDLs, the longest time-to-fly listed is 17h35m. For deco dives, longest TTF is 24 hours. This table is of particular interest to persons doing other than commercial flights, because the table covers to to ascent for altitudes of 1,000' to 10,000.
While I don't know the details of the table construction, it appears that it is simply a reciprocal offgassing calculation that keeps all theoretical dissolved gas compartments within their 1965 Workmann M values at altitude.

An earlier post in this thread referred to Bulmann tables, with some fly after dive times as short as 3 hours. I have not seen these tables, but they are probably similar to the NOAA table in that they assume offgassing at the same rate as ongassing, and then calculate the required period for ascent. There have been studies which show that, under some conditions, offgassing will NOT occur at the same rate as ongassing ("non-reciprocal offgassing") In particular, it is clear that is there is any bubble formation in tissues, that these bubbles are absorbed at a much slower rate than dissolved gas.

Dr. Deco's statement (the one that prompted me to post MHK's thoughts on the matter) was: "I cannot imagine under what conditions a three-hour interval prior to flying is possible, but I will not argue that he [Buhlmann] said it. " (8 July post). Dr Deco has also posted both in this thread and others, information on micronuclei. You can also do a google search on "tribonucleation" for some other related info.

GUE instructor Michael Kane, who posts on this board as MHK, believes that a properly done deco allows flying immediately after diving ("wet hair" rule). It appears from his many posts that he does not believe that even waiting the reciprocal offgassing time of Bulhmann and NOAA is required. He has successfully used the "wet hair" rule multiple times.
 
Charlie99 once bubbled...
We don't seem to inhabit the same universe, James.

The links and quotes I provided are from 2001,2002, and 2003. None from 1997. 1) Which 1997 conversation do you refer to? 2) If somehow I did include a 1997 reference, why is that material considering that I also provided links that show this is still his current thinking?

My mistake. (I swear it said 1997 2 days ago but not now :))


You feel that posting links to his statements, with little or no comment on them, is bashing. I don't.

You think that posting on a board where both he, many of his students, and his fellow instructors hang out as doing something behind his back. I don't.

Well then by all means send him a PM inviting him to the conversation.


If you stop your off topic rants, we might have a discussion of the different theories of fly-after-dive, and why people believe what they do.

Gee, I thought that is what we were doing.
 
fins wake once bubbled...
... because I'm off diving in a few minutes ... :wink:

You have an odd defintion of quick :).

Incidentally, the use of Darwin's great Theory of Evolution to seriously argue any form of human endeavour is misguided at best. Evolution is a very slow process. Most people who argue such short timescales are really more onto Herbert Spencer and his Lamarckian influences ... Just an aside.

As long as they die before they reproduce they are still helping that slow process....

Although he shares this personal choice very liberally on forums to divers he doesn't know. That's all. And that's what many have taken exception to.

Don't we all?

I think this holds a lot of the appeal that this community has on the Internet. Many people like the idea that they are somehow privy to "secret" and somehow "magic" information which the establishment for some obscure reason withholds from the diving community. I don't buy this myself for a variety of reasons.

I didn't intend to imply that the esabilshment was involved in some kind of conspiracy theory against the dive community. They are, IMHO, overly conservative in what is probably a reaction to the litigiousness of our society.

And to be honest, the "establishment" view on many boards, if you look at the many concurring posts by the very active posters, nowadays often very is the GUE/WKPP/DIR view ... :rolleyes: :wink: :D

I would call them the vocal minority.
 
Dear Readers, (as our very own Doc Deco would say),

This topic has aroused an amazing amount of controversy and no little heat, some of which is mine, I must admit. To return to point, so to speak, I would like to take the liberty of re-posting some very pertinent remarks by the good Doctor. (Also to apologize for what, of necessity, will be a rather long post!)

--------------------------------------------------------------

Microbubbles in the Cabin
Dear Readers:

Flying after diving

This is a problem not yet solved except in a very general way. Divers can tell this because, while dive depths and times are very closely regulated, the time-to-fly duration is more or less just a general rule of thumb.

Considerable research has gone into the development of dive tables. This same degree of testing has not gone into dive/fly rules. This is most likely because government agencies (e.g., US Navy) are the biggest providers of money and they do not dive and fly. When a question such as this arose at NASA, we had a very specific protocol in mind and tested only that protocol. Scuba diver schedules are a varied mixture. Unless a dive computer maker would wish to test this, little will probably be done - - EXCEPT FOR THE DAN STUDY. (Emphasis mine.--Ed.)

Bubble Growth

If you wish to determine if a preformed gas phase exists in a liquid (or tissue), the easiest way to do this is to depressurize it and look for visible gas bubbles. All decompression bubbles in water or tissue start from preformed bubbles. These are termed the nuclei (by EN Harvey in the 1940s).

When one goes from sea level to altitude in an airplane, DCS can only result if the preformed nuclei are larger than a certain size, and in sufficient number, that pain will result. An ascent to 8,000 feet (cabin altitude) would require micronuclei of several microns in size (to overcome the surface tension = Laplace pressure). These are not present in sufficient number in the ordinary passenger to cause problems. This is obvious because people do not get the bends from riding in a commercial aircraft cabin.

Diving and Bubble Growth

If you are a diver, however, and board an airplane with residual bubbles from diving , you may indeed have a sufficient number of microbubbles larger than the Laplace limit. When going to altitude, they WILL grow.

When you go diving again, these will shrink, and they can be controlled to some degree. You do not have the “luxury” of compression prior to flight.

Emergency Depressurization

This was something I looked into for the FAA. Generally, DCS will not be a problem within a realistic time-frame up to about 40,000 feet of altitude for the ordinary passenger. If you are bringing back nuclei as a souvenir of your dive trip, you might get an unexpected problem. This type of a depressurization is not common, but sometimes there are failures of the cabin pressurization systems.

Dr Deco

-----------------------------------------------------------------

These are all excellent points from a man who has the education and research to back them up, and who's job it is to study this stuff for our very own space agency. This leads, inescapably, to several conclusions:

(1) The DAN study is the only on-going study of its type, and, alas, the final results are not yet published.

(2) The various FAD tables and recommendations, such as NOAA, DAN, PADI, NAUI, et al, are extrapolations based upon current knowledge and decompression algorithms, most of which rely upon SYMMETRICAL on and off gassing. As much new research is beginning to show, however, this is not likely to be so in vivo.

(3) Until the DAN study is published, based or modeled on actual experimental results, we cannot KNOW for certain.

Until that time, however, I can make certain judgements from the standpoint of my job.

(1) I am paid to get the airplane, its passengers, and the cargo SAFELY to the scheduled destination. After many years on the job, and many, many tests in the "Sim", I can state with pride that I do my job extremely well.

(2) Any medical emergency aboard my aircraft, especially one that requires a diversion to another destination, throws a lot of sudden variables into the established plan. This invariably raises risk factors, and I (and every other professsional pilot) do NOT like this. I will get us all there safely, but it will cost a lot in terms of money, time, and aggravation.

(3) If this emergency is not of your making, neither I or anyone else will begrudge the time, and money it takes to help you!

(4) If you have caused this emergency by your own willful disregard for proper procedure, and/or behavior, my company, the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board), and various legal staffs will be involved in examining your situation. If it is determined that you acted willfully, and with disregard for what is known to be established safe procedure, they WILL take you to court to recover the VERY SUBSTANTIAL COSTS.

I have to admit that, since I am an instructor for IANTD, I believe in the often stated philosophy of our founder, Tom Mount. He believes that, once informed of the risks, we all have a right to risk ourselves as we see fit. I say again, I DO believe that.

If you wish to risk yourself and your health by flaunting known and conservative procedure by climbing out of the water from deco dives and flying with your hair still wet, have at it brother!=-)

As a piece of sincere advice, DO NOT tell me about it! DO NOT tell others about it! Above all, DO NOT put it in print.

If you do, I will be the one to testify to all of the above named agencies that you risked all of us on the airplane WILLFULLY AND KNOWINGLY!!! That, sir, is my job!:box:
 
Dear Scuba Board Readers:

Bubble Formers :scuba:

Yes, it has been known for three decades (since the advent of the Doppler bubble detector) that some people form bubbles on a given dive and some do not. The devices also illustrated that not all divers with bubbles will get DCS.

What the Dervay study illustrated (to our surprise) was that even with strenuous exercise prior to depress, some individuals did not form bubbles. This is a new experimental finding.

Money

As BigJetDriver indicated, diversion of an airplane will cost money. If the airline believes that they can reasonably recover at least a part of that cost because of something that you knowingly did, they will attempt to recoup their money – from you. If I were ever to “fly with my hair wet,” I would not let anyone know about it.

I definitely would not fly like that, anyway. :nono:

Dr Deco :doctor:

Please note the next class in Decompression Physiology :grad:
http://wrigley.usc.edu/hyperbaric/advdeco.htm
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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