General Vortex Incident Discussion

[lurk-n-learn]

Here is a video of cave divers, compare and see the difference: The Crystal Caves of Abaco - Cave Diving Worldwide on Vimeo

[vimeo]10402471[/vimeo]

I didn't realized it had been moved.

"thread 1" was in Accidents forum. Can't remember where "thread 2" was. ... it sorta dissappeared.

Then the second thread basically became this thread, but I thought it was in the Deep Dixie Diver forum. Not sure when it got moved to the Cave Diver forum.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...vortex-missing-diver-incident-aug-2010-a.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...860-accident-vortex-springs-8-20-10-a-44.html

These were the first two threads that I was following. Not sure if they are the only ones.

 

[Hetland]

I didn't realized it had been moved.

"thread 1" was in Accidents forum. Can't remember where "thread 2" was. ... it sorta dissappeared.

Then the second thread basically became this thread, but I thought it was in the Deep Dixie Diver forum. Not sure when it got moved to the Cave Diver forum.

There is one in the Tech-only forum too, but you have to be a deco or helium diver to be granted access.

 

[lurk-n-learn]

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...vortex-missing-diver-incident-aug-2010-a.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...860-accident-vortex-springs-8-20-10-a-44.html

These were the first two threads that I was following. Not sure if they are the only ones.

sorry reposted the same thing....A techno geek I am not
But I dont know why or how that video was posted ...glad it was again though because I am in awe of that amazing sight!

 

[Tacman55]

I remember that episode. I've got it on VHS somewhere.

3 (or 4) OW divers that had recently finished their OW class decided to go enter the cave (at Ginnie or somewhere, can't remember exactly).

They were all single tanks, and only had about one 'half ass' light between them.


One of them made it out by himself... and sounded the alarm. Luckily there was a trained cave diver gearing up. He went in searching for them.

two of them made it up into a crack air pocket. Their gas/air supply exhausted. He brought them out one at a time. They were damn lucky.

the last guy they brought out dead.

The incident portrayed in the video took place at Otter Springs... The cave diver who made those rescues was Woody Jasper, a pioneer sidemount cave diver.

Woody's interview which addresses the need for proper training and equipment for diving in overhead is one of the best you will ever see and should be viewed by all divers along with the rest of the story on that incident...

Those divers and their familes are very fortunate that Woody was the diver present that day. Woody did a great thing for the cave diving community by addressing the fact that the divers were not cave divers and were not trained to be there but could have safely made the dive with such training and gear...and he did so by using his training, specialized equipment and skill to save lives in an environment where such incidents almost always yield recovered bodies not rescued victims.....

 

[Cave Diver]

I didn't realized it had been moved.

"thread 1" was in Accidents forum. Can't remember where "thread 2" was. ... it sorta dissappeared.

Then the second thread basically became this thread, but I thought it was in the Deep Dixie Diver forum. Not sure when it got moved to the Cave Diver forum.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...vortex-missing-diver-incident-aug-2010-a.html

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ac...860-accident-vortex-springs-8-20-10-a-44.html

These were the first two threads that I was following. Not sure if they are the only ones.

The first thread was shut down when insults started flying around and tensions got a bit too high.

I copied some of the more relevant posts to the second thread, where the discussion continued for a while longer. Both of those threads where in the A & I forum. When the second thread started to drift away from the accident posts, it was closed and the off topic posts were moved to the cave diving forum for further discussion.

The cave diving forum is open to all posters.

There is also a thread in the Deep Dixie forum, relating to diving plans at Vortex.

Hopefully that clears up all the questions.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Nothing as soon as Oct! Way too busy teaching here in CO! I definitetly would like to look at making some plans between Nov and mid-Jan. though. Lets see what we can work out. It may even be possible to bring a CO group down.

Let me know when. I have some classes and other events already scheduled in November and December, but there are still plenty of open days. Also, between my wife and me, we can train up to 8 divers in 2 separate classes.

Not a cave diver here, so maybe the cave instructors out there could clarify: I'd gotten the impression that most cave agencies required and reputable instructors performed a certain amount of psychological screening when certifying people. If so, then discussing how any criteria were or were not met by an accident victim wouldn't seem out of line.

Cave instructors are not required to perform psychological screening. However, one of the thing I look at with my students is attitude. Unsafe attitudes mean no advancement. I've had a few students that ended up instructor shopping because I told them they weren't ready for the next level yet. They didn't like that and went off to find an instructor that would just take their money. It's sad that happens, but it does. Not all instructors care about attitude. I will say that most of the instructors I know do
consider attitude a very important part of the decision on whether to issue a cert or not.

 

[boulderjohn]

Cave instructors are not required to perform psychological screening. However, one of the thing I look at with my students is attitude. Unsafe attitudes mean no advancement. I've had a few students that ended up instructor shopping because I told them they weren't ready for the next level yet. They didn't like that and went off to find an instructor that would just take their money. It's sad that happens, but it does. Not all instructors care about attitude. I will say that most of the instructors I know do
consider attitude a very important part of the decision on whether to issue a cert or not.

Just pointing out that it does not mean that the second instructor was any different from you. It may mean that the students learned from you that they needed to project a different attitude.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Just pointing out that it does not mean that the second instructor was any different from you. It may mean that the students learned from you that they needed to project a different attitude.

The cave diving community is small. The cave diving instructor community is even smaller. Most of the students, as far as I know, haven't received "full" cave certs yet...that's after a total of 3 instructors, including me. One has, with the 3rd instructor. The issue there wasn't so much unsafe attitude as it was wanting to get through "full" cave without gaining any experience at the Intro level Main line just wasn't enough, I guess. Not sure how there could be a different attitude there.

 

[Jax]

The cave diving community is small. The cave diving instructor community is even smaller. Most of the students, as far as I know, haven't received "full" cave certs yet...that's after a total of 3 instructors, including me. One has, with the 3rd instructor. The issue there wasn't so much unsafe attitude as it was wanting to get through "full" cave without gaining any experience at the Intro level Main line just wasn't enough, I guess. Not sure how there could be a different attitude there.

How much time would you recommend between the courses? I've heard of a few "Zero-to-Hero" courses . . .

 

[Dive-aholic]

How much time would you recommend between the courses? I've heard of a few "Zero-to-Hero" courses . . .

It's not a matter of time. It's a matter of getting some dives in the caves to improve skills and situational awareness. While skills can be worked on in OW, situational awareness in the caves is another story. And situational awareness is a huge part of the "full" cave class...at least for me. It's almost impossible to develop cave situational awareness in 8 days.

While I'm sure there are several out there, I only know of one person that has passed a zero-to-hero class, but he has 1000s of wreck and decompression dives in his past. I don't recommend zero-to-hero classes and tell that to students up front. If someone wants to do it, I'll allow them to try, but I require at least 1 day off halfway through. 8 straight days is a lot for me, and even more for a student. I also tell students that insist on a zero-to-hero that the likelihood of them getting the "full" cave cert is very low and they will probably leave with an Apprentice cert. So far I haven't taught a zero-to-hero. They either heed my warnings and take it slower or they find an instructor that's willing to give them the cert they want.