Georgia man dead - Key Largo, Florida

[Canadave]

Don't be too sensitive Dr. Mike. For an experienced diver being in a few feet of water wearing a hundred pounds of scuba gear may be no big deal ... Maybe. The

For me the post is a bit of education that things can go wrong any where during a dive. Every time I read of one of these accidents or incidents it makes me reflect on my own diving and that is a good thing.

 

[DandyDon]

likewise, if you fell out of a chairlift on your first ride up, would it be a skiing death?

Yep. Ever been on a chair lift skiing? Getting off the moving chair at the top, skis still on your feet, and skiing to the side before the chair can hit you, as well as not falling in the depression so that the people on the next chair coming won't exit on top of you - it's all part of the risks of snow skiing. Add altitude, cold, equipment challenges - lots of risks. Why would you not call that a skiing accident...??

Wow, pretty aggressive reply to a fairly benign comment...

Wearing scuba gear and intending to dive is not the same thing as "scuba diving"

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I do take strong exception to dismissing this as a non-diving accident. From the time you leave the dock with scuba gear to the time you get back onto the dock is all part of the risks of scuba - including tanks falling on boats, etc. If we are here to learn, as I understand the purpose of this A&I forum, it's good to learn how to prevent all accidents directly involving scuba - submerged or not.

Right. So whatever happened, it wasn't caused by scuba diving, assuming that the information that we have is complete.

The info we have is far from complete. He did a scuba entry for a scuba dive in scuba gear, something went wrong with that, and he had a scuba accident before submerging. My best guess as I posted above is that he screwed up with his scuba gear on his scuba entry - but I'm guessing, in part based on problems I have barely survived myself.

Ok, so he was in scuba gear, he jumped off a boat into the water. That's the beginning of 'a dive', thus he was diving. Based on the description in the article, it could of been anything. Sad.

Yep, even if it was a medical event - no more than we know from the brief, early report, being in scuba gear and doing a scuba water entry into rough seas could have possibly precipitated the problem. No way to know yet, but he was involved in a scuba dive even though he hadn't sunk yet.

Yes. But you also need to be underwater at some point to drown. From the information that you provided, there is no evidence that that happened. But if you know more, you should tell us, since that would help with this discussion...

Nope, not at all - but it sounds like he was on the verge of sinking.

All you have to do to "drown floating on the surface" is to lose consciousness for whatever reason and roll over face down . . .and start aspirating water. (You do not have to be necessarily submerged or underwater per se).

Or incur dry-drowning after a near-drowning experience.

One my most embarrassing water mishaps happened in a pool at a family gathering, in the shallow end no less. I had my snorkel gear on and leaned over into a surface swim, inhaled, and got a dose of water in my lungs from a faulty drain valve. I stood up immediately, but the ensuing laryngospasm nearly took me down again - all while my younger cousins were laughing. It would have been pretty bad to drown in the shallow end of the pool before my kinfolk stopped laughing enough to drag me out - and we were at a remote country club, no medical services for many miles, but anyway - it was a snorkeling accident ok. Lots of ways to die in the water, and good to prevent all of them.

 

[boulderjohn]

This is reminding me of a thread a couple of years ago that I thought was nonsensical. It took place in the Cave Divers Forum, and it pertained to a scuba fatality in which someone died deep in a cave but was not certified to dive in caves. At least half the people in the thread insisted with great vigor that it was not a cave diving fatality even though it occurred to someone diving deep in a cave because the diver was not certified to be there. To me it is like saying someone did not die in a car accident if his driver's license was suspended when he died in a car accident.

I used to read the annual DAN fatality reports with great attention to detail every year while they were still publishing them. There were more than a few cases in which divers succumbed on the surface, either before submerging or after surfacing, and the cause was pretty much always a cardiac event. DAN still called it a diving death and included it in the totals for the year. In fact, the largest category of fatalities every year was some sort of cardiac event, and they were always included as diving fatalities, whether they occurred on the surface or under water.

Now, you can also argue that a cardiac event that leads to a fatality is not a diving death, just as you can argue that a person who dies in a car crash after having a heart attack did not die in a car crash. It seems to be a silly distinction to me.

 

[tracydr]

Yep. Ever been on a chair lift skiing? Getting off the moving chair at the top, skis still on your feet, and skiing to the side before the chair can hit you, as well as not falling in the depression so that the people on the next chair coming won't exit on top of you - it's all part of the risks of snow skiing. Add altitude, cold, equipment challenges - lots of risks. Why would you not call that a skiing accident...??


Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but I do take strong exception to dismissing this as a non-diving accident. From the time you leave the dock with scuba gear to the time you get back onto the dock is all part of the risks of scuba - including tanks falling on boats, etc. If we are here to learn, as I understand the purpose of this A&I forum, it's good to learn how to prevent all accidents directly involving scuba - submerged or not.


The info we have is far from complete. He did a scuba entry for a scuba dive in scuba gear, something went wrong with that, and he had a scuba accident before submerging. My best guess as I posted above is that he screwed up with his scuba gear on his scuba entry - but I'm guessing, in part based on problems I have barely survived myself.


Yep, even if it was a medical event - no more than we know from the brief, early report, being in scuba gear and doing a scuba water entry into rough seas could have possibly precipitated the problem. No way to know yet, but he was involved in a scuba dive even though he hadn't sunk yet.


Nope, not at all - but it sounds like he was on the verge of sinking.


Or incur dry-drowning after a near-drowning experience.

One my most embarrassing water mishaps happened in a pool at a family gathering, in the shallow end no less. I had my snorkel gear on and leaned over into a surface swim, inhaled, and got a dose of water in my lungs from a faulty drain valve. I stood up immediately, but the ensuing laryngospasm nearly took me down again - all while my younger cousins were laughing. It would have been pretty bad to drown in the shallow end of the pool before my kinfolk stopped laughing enough to drag me out - and we were at a remote country club, no medical services for many miles, but anyway - it was a snorkeling accident ok. Lots of ways to die in the water, and good to prevent all of them.

I was getting ready for a second dive for DM class. We were diving in summer in AZ. I geared up a little early and my buddy and instructor were still hanging out in the shade, unaware that I was walking down to the lake.
I decided to take a dunk to cool off. I didn't check my gear but I was just going to go out into the wading depth water and sit down in about 6-12". I fell in a hole, had a steel tank and just a skin so kind of negative,although no weight belt. My air was off,oops! Not being ready to be underwater I don't even think I had a full breath of air. I honestly thought I was going to drown in just over 5 feet of water,not even the deep end of a pool! Luckily I was able to claw my way to the surface and get a breath and get out of that darn hole!
I learned that day to respect all water, even little puddles. You never know when somehow you won't be able to get your nostrils or mouth above the surface of that puddle.
Probably nothing to do with this current incident but I have no problem with it being called a scuba death and discussing it as such.

 

[scagrotto]

So whatever happened, it wasn't caused by scuba diving, assuming that the information that we have is complete.

The information we have clearly isn't complete, since it doesn't include the cause of death. That means that we have no idea one way or the other if his death was caused by scuba diving. What we do know is that he put on his scuba gear and he got into the water on purpose, and he presumably planned to descend. If I never get below the surface I certainly won't consider it a good dive, but donning gear and getting in the water are, as near as I can tell, integral and necessary parts of every scuba dive, but aren't things you'd normally do if you're not going diving.

Even if it turns out that the cause of death was a heart attack there's a good chance he'd still be alive if he hadn't been trying to go diving and made it through the initial stages of going diving. Of course it's also possible that he'd have had heart attack if he'd stayed home and watched TV, but AFAIK there's generally no way to tell if a heart attack was caused by a specific, but relatively mundane event.

 

[wgw04024]

You know, when I started diving a few years ago, I thought I was a little ocd neurotic about checking, double, and triple checking my valves and air supply. I always go in the water with a full breath, make sure my reg is working, submerge, then slowly exhale a half a breath, then inhale again. Just to be sure everything is working. I do read this forum as others have said, just to remind myself of all the big things that happen that start off as little things. This forum is unbelievably valuable to me.

 

[KevinNM]

I was getting ready for a second dive for DM class. We were diving in summer in AZ. I geared up a little early and my buddy and instructor were still hanging out in the shade, unaware that I was walking down to the lake.
I decided to take a dunk to cool off....

Our entire fundamentals class got yelled at by the instructor for this kind of casual attitude. She was pretty insistent that we needed to be ready to dive before we did things like walk out on the dock. But yeah, it happens. Drowning in full scuba gear due carelessness would really suck as a way to go.

 

[wgw04024]

The only critical observation I would say about that story is, why on earth would you not have your air turned on? I just can't think of a reason to turn my air off unless i'm taking my regulator yolk off the tank. I like to have my rig together and check my air after the boat ride to see if it has lost any air.

 

[KathyV]

I don't have any problem considering this a scuba death, because he died while attempting to dive and hopefully we will find out what happened and learn something from the event.

But it does remind me of a local tragedy in my area a number of years ago. A plane took off with a load of skydivers, they were wearing their gear and they were on the plane for the purpose of skydiving; except of course the pilot who was there to fly the plane full of skydivers.

They developed mechanical trouble shortly after takeoff and the pilot tried to do an emergency landing but the plane crashed and burned and everyone onboard died. The FAA came in and the incident was classified as a plane crash and not as a skydiving accident.

There are some similarities to scuba diving - it would be like a boat full of divers lost at sea - you wouldn't consider that a diving accident.

But this incident is different, he was in the water in his gear when he died. I still agree that this should be classified as a scuba death; but no matter how you count it let's try and learn something from the tragedy.

 

[gypsyjim]

It never ceases to amaze me what some folks can find to argue about.....