Ginnie 3-18-2012

[mathauck0814]

After just finishing a dive in the Devil's System we saw the unmistakable signs of an overdue diver. Ginnie security found a single vehicle in the parking lot with a Friday tag on the car Sunday morning. Sadly, we knew we must have just swam past the body.

IMHO, this was nothing to do with training, liability, decision making or other typical issue. The diver appears to have taken his own life quite on purpose. The autopsy will confirm the victims's sobriety, which is was in a great deal of question based on the contents of his vehicle.

I would suspend the typical speculation and analysis on this one as it's likely to be a rather unique outcome.

Well... That's awful...

 

[BabyDuck]

...awful in so many ways. at least if someone jumps off a bridge, there aren't threats to close the bridge to others who know how to drive or bike or walk totally across without submitting to the temptation to do a header off the side. so i hope this speculation is proven incorrect.

 

[gkwalt]

Two things struck me in reading this thread. First, cave divers are not the end all and be all of diving. Penetrating a wreck with downed cable, fallen object and dead end passages is just as risky as cave diving (compare cave diving incidents to wreck diving incidents). The second observation is that dive training has been extremely watered down. A friend of mine recently told me his 12 years old son just took a prominent dive organization OW certification on line(no contact with an instructor or pool time) and is going to check out in a tropical location. When is the industry going to say it's not about selling equipment or classes, but creating safe, well trained divers. Recreational diving can be just as hazardous as cave or technical diving, isn't it time to make sure our OW divers get the best training they can? The black eye on our sport is going to be ill trained divers getting injured and the public perceiving that diving is unsafe. As an instructor, I say keep the standards high and make sure our students are really ready to become divers.

 

[tstormdiver]

Two things struck me in reading this thread. First, cave divers are not the end all and be all of diving.

No one ever said they were, but they are generally the most qualified to be in that environment.

Penetrating a wreck with downed cable, fallen object and dead end passages is just as risky as cave diving (compare cave diving incidents to wreck diving incidents).

In many ways I see wreck diving as being potentially more risky, but then I am not an Adv. wreck diver. Similar, but altoghether different set of risks.

The second observation is that dive training has been extremely watered down. A friend of mine recently told me his 12 years old son just took a prominent dive organization OW certification on line(no contact with an instructor or pool time) and is going to check out in a tropical location.

Can not argue that.

When is the industry going to say it's not about selling equipment or classes, but creating safe, well trained divers.

There are agencies out there trying to accomplish that, it is just they aren't typically the biggest, so one may have to look harder to find them. Unfortunately in the real world, money talks. If an agency (business) doesn't make money, they don't survive very long to try to pass on their ideas.

Recreational diving can be just as hazardous as cave or technical diving, isn't it time to make sure our OW divers get the best training they can? The black eye on our sport is going to be ill trained divers getting injured and the public perceiving that diving is unsafe. As an instructor, I say keep the standards high and make sure our students are really ready to become divers.

Recreational diving, yes, has its own risks, but I wouldn't really say it is AS risky as diving in the overhead environment. Totally different skill sets & risks. If they were the same, then either there wouldn't be OW divers dying in caves or there would be cave divers dying all the time. I agree that diving students MUST be taught to the best that the industry can do, but keep in mind, like it or not, it is a business & money is involved. A balance between making money & quality must be found & attained.

 

[Dirty-Dog]

Two things struck me in reading this thread. First, cave divers are not the end all and be all of diving. Penetrating a wreck with downed cable, fallen object and dead end passages is just as risky as cave diving (compare cave diving incidents to wreck diving incidents). The second observation is that dive training has been extremely watered down. A friend of mine recently told me his 12 years old son just took a prominent dive organization OW certification on line(no contact with an instructor or pool time) and is going to check out in a tropical location. When is the industry going to say it's not about selling equipment or classes, but creating safe, well trained divers. Recreational diving can be just as hazardous as cave or technical diving, isn't it time to make sure our OW divers get the best training they can? The black eye on our sport is going to be ill trained divers getting injured and the public perceiving that diving is unsafe. As an instructor, I say keep the standards high and make sure our students are really ready to become divers.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what that 12 year old did. Theory is theory. Doesn't matter if you learn it from a book on an interactive program. The skills training done in the pool and OW checkout dives is identical.

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

[JamesK]

Two things struck me in reading this thread. First, cave divers are not the end all and be all of diving.

This has got to be one of the nuttiest statements I have read tonight. What even brought that on? It almost made me not want to read the rest of your post, which judging by your first two lines, I did not think would actually make some sense.

 

[darushin]

Two things struck me in reading this thread. First, cave divers are not the end all and be all of diving. Penetrating a wreck with downed cable, fallen object and dead end passages is just as risky as cave diving (compare cave diving incidents to wreck diving incidents). The second observation is that dive training has been extremely watered down. A friend of mine recently told me his 12 years old son just took a prominent dive organization OW certification on line(no contact with an instructor or pool time) and is going to check out in a tropical location. When is the industry going to say it's not about selling equipment or classes, but creating safe, well trained divers. Recreational diving can be just as hazardous as cave or technical diving, isn't it time to make sure our OW divers get the best training they can? The black eye on our sport is going to be ill trained divers getting injured and the public perceiving that diving is unsafe. As an instructor, I say keep the standards high and make sure our students are really ready to become divers.

We aren't the end all be all, we are people who have had the training to realize just how extremely dangerous diving in a overhead environment is. I think my cave instructor summed cave training up pretty well "Every rule in cave diving cost a life to discover, and your cave training book is 100+ pages".

Daru

 

[Davemohio]

We aren't the end all be all, we are people who have had the training to realize just how extremely dangerous diving in a overhead environment is. I think my cave instructor summed cave training up pretty well "Every rule in cave diving cost a life to discover, and your cave training book is 100+ pages".

Daru

Sad, but VERY TRUE.

Well said.

 

[boulderjohn]

The second observation is that dive training has been extremely watered down. A friend of mine recently told me his 12 years old son just took a prominent dive organization OW certification on line(no contact with an instructor or pool time) and is going to check out in a tropical location.

Online learning of academics is common today, but pool is required by every agency that I know about. It is possible that when the student signed up for the class, the student selected a shop in a resort area, meaning he will have to do the pool work at that resort when he gets there. If not, you should find out what agency it was. If it is one of the mainstream agencies that do online instruction (which is most of them now), you should definitely report them for a standards violation.

 

[Colliam7]

I don't know about all these instructors taking OW students for a peek inside a cave, just doesn't make any sense to me.
I was down there to actually do Full Trimix at 40 Fathom, but we hit Ginnie to work on some skills in the shallow, & I guess what is referred to as the ballroom, where we went to the grate to feel the flow.

I agree with you, although I don't teach there so perhaps I am missing something related to the comfort level of experienced instructors working that area. A few years back, I did a Cavern course at Ginnie. On the first day, we noted that there was a large OW course in progress, with some 10 -12 students, and several Instructors. I had a question similar to some already posted here, about how 'good' a site Ginnie is for OW check-outs. But, I figured that was someone else's issue, not mine. On the second day, while I was practicing running a line into the Ballroom, here comes the entire class, like a massive school of guppies, swimming into the Ballroom, bouncing off the bottom / sides / ceiling, and fluttering around like a flock of moths. If you are introduced to the environment as an OW student / diver, and come away with the impression that it is a) cool and b) safe enough for a brand new diver, it isn't surprising that some divers take home the wrong message. Notwithstanding all the admonitions in the world, curiosity is bound to get the best of some divers, with very unfrotunate consequences.