Going back down to stop deco

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Doc, I'm not up on current diving studies, but it seems pretty straight up for the guy who, due to some error or emergency winds up having to make an emergency ascent and bypass his decompression stop, if he isn't feeling any dcs symptoms within the time it takes him to strap on a new tank (obviously it might not be a good idea to get back in the water if you are feeling symptons and may not be able to function properly), getting back into the water to give yourself a decompression period at 10-15 feet seems worth the risk, because diving to some depth IS putting yourself into a decompression chamber, the only one at hand; I'm convinced lots of dcs events could be avoided by recompressing in the water (provided no symptoms have developed yet)- what's your personal opinion on this (since there really isn't agreement from the medical community, (or more likely no one wants to commit an opinion due to lawsuits) ? Thanx Zen
 
getting back into the water to give yourself a decompression period at 10-15 feet seems worth the risk,
If we're talking IWR, remember, you're on air (or possibly on a lean nitrox mix). The pp02 will be very low at 10-15 feet, so low as to probably be useless if there's a real omitted decompression obligation which carries a high risk of DCI. (Even on pure oxygen at 10 feet, your ppO2 will only be 1,3.)

The high partial pressures of oxygen that are considered beneficial for true recompression carry a risk of hyperoxia (oxygen toxicity) and a very real risk of drowning! This is one of the major reasons IWR is generally only considered by trained DMT:s with proper equipment and back-up.

If we are talking omitted decompression stops in general (and not IWR specifically), then recreational divers without the training have no business doing them. Protocols for omitted decompression stops are comprehensively covered in most technical dive training classes, but as one instructor once told me: "You never omit a decompression stop" ...

Remember, true technical divers - irrespective of agency affiliation - dive with proper redundancy and the training to handle most any emergency.

Short of being attacked by Moby Dick - or more likely, experiencing a hyperoxic or hypercapnic event leading to unconsciousness and action by your team mates - there will never be a need to bolt to the surface, omitting the stops.

For the overwhelmingly vast majority of recreational divers diving within the limits of their training and experience this should never be an issue. Surface oxygen and prompt evacuation to a recompression chamber will take care of the vast majority of recreational divers who break these rules.
 
BTW, legal niceties in the U.S, the UK and some other countries may preclude the automatic administering of oxygen, which is both a scandal and a tragedy, so please be aware of these legal niceties. But personally I'd go for the O2 bottle all the same ... First time, every time when there's a high likelihood of DCI.

It may be true that legal nicities may prohibit the automatic "administering" of O2...

BUT, I am aware of NO legal stricture preventing someone from choosing to breathe a breathable gas (not a pharmaceutical product), on their own initiative, on the surface.

This is a very important distinction, although it turns on legal definitions of what is and is not in a given bottle, and who does what.

For example in the US there are three commonly-available grades of O2 (ignoring the analytical grades) - welding, aviator's breathing and Oxygen USP.

Only the latter is regulated by law.

The first is avaialble for use in welding, as you'd suspect. But what you might not suspect is that impurities in welding gas will cause defective welds, even at extremely low contaminent levels, and defective welds can KILL people. As such welding O2 is actually more pure than "Oxygen USP", by definition, and is, in a pinch, perfectly ok to consume.

The second, Aviator's breathing O2, is intended for human consumption. It's intended purpose is for breathing in unpressurized aircraft cabins; many pilots use it at night above 5,000 feet or so, as visual acuity is important and is affected by even mild hypoxia, and over 10,000 feet it is essentially mandatory to use it. Private pilots generally use a cannula system and very low flow rates, as all they are attempting to do is provide some supplemental O2 in this situation - no a complete breathing supply. Its "big deal" from a purity perspective is that it must be extremely dry (low dewpoint), because unpressurized aircraft areas can be cold at altitude, and a frozen regulator (internal parts) could result in a disaster.

It is available without legal restriction in the United States, and may be consumed without restriction, subject only to the limits of your wallet. It can be had in basically any reasonably-sized town or city by the "K" or "T" bottle, quite inexpesnively (I pay $16 per "K", which is enough for 20-30 tanks of Nitrox.)

Most dive shops use this grade for blending Nitrox (and Trimix where appropriate.)

Oxygen USP is "medical grade." Its claim to fame is that it requires a prescription to dispense or administer, and/or "training" (e.g. EMS folks, etc) This is the stuff that you cannot buy and consume without a prescription. There are also strictures on putting anything other than it in a bottle labelled "Oxygen USP" (federal law on manufacturing of a prescription drug!), etc.

So..... if you come up from a dive, and feel you've blown your intended profile, your options are nowhere near as limited as you might think, provided whoever you are diving with has half a brain and is not playing doctor-style games.

BTW, "doctor-style" games extend to "hyperbaric physicians" - that includes DAN - unless you question them CLOSELY (at which point they freely admit that their "doctor games" are, in fact, driven by the doctor stuff and not the dive physiology reality.)

If they have Aviator's Breathing O2 on board, irrespective of what kind of bottle it is contained in, if you have a means of breathing it you are free to grab and consume it (legally-speaking), since you are not "administering" anything - you are consuming a freely-sold breathable gas.

If that bottle contains Oxygen USP (and is so labelled) then legally one should be "O2 provider certified" to "administer" it, whether to one's self or others, and legally doing so may trigger a whole chain of "standard of care" requirements (again, depending on who's doing it and what their relationship is to you.)

The distinction here is not minor.

If you have ABO on board a boat you are on, and desire to breathe it, the only restriction you have on doing so is the cost of the gas fill to recharge the bottle - and that cost is MINISCULE. Even if you PAY a dive shop to refill the bottle, it should not cost more than $10 - and that's at their usual 500%+ mark-up. Anyone who believes they may be at enhanced risk of a DCS hit and who does not grab the bottle and consume it in such a situation is, IMHO, a fool.

The difference in "wash-out" rates between breathing air and pure, 100% O2 on the surface is very significant. It is quite likely that you may avoid a hit you would otherwise take, and if you don't you are almost certani to lessen its severity, by consuming the O2.

The generally understood protocol on my personal (not-for-hire, non-charter, privately operated) vessel is this:

1. I have two full Jumbo-D bottles of 100% Aviator's Breathing O2 on board. These bottles DO NOT contain a prescription drug - they contain a breathable, human-safe consumable gas.
2. Divers often use such gas for decompression at depths at or under 20'. "The surface" is a depth of less than 20'. All dives are in fact decompression dives - we just usually do our deco on the surface, in what we call a "surface interval." Ergo, it is perfectly appropriate to breathe that decompression gas while on the surface, tempered only by its cost, which is not zero.
3. The bottles are in a Pelican box, in a cabinet on the boat, are clearly labelled, along with the appropriate regulator and demand valve, much like a scuba second stage. With the exception of connecting the hose to the demand valve, the kit is left assembled on the first bottle with the tank valve turned off.
4. If you have any reason to believe you may need this gas to decompress on the surface, you may consume the gas contained in those bottle(s) on your own initiative. If you do not know how to put the hoses on to accomplish this, physical assembly of the kit is simple enough to show you in 30 seconds or less. Neither I or anyone else - unless someone on the boat happens to be an EMT-trained person (there are a few I dive with) will "administer" O2 to anyone who is conscious and breathing - but you are free to consume any decompression gas on board the boat, or the surrounding air, you feel is appropriate for yourself, in your judgement. This includes a tank of Nitrox if you happen to have one and wish to use it in the same fashion. This covers "permission" to use these two tanks of breathable gas I have on board - if you would like to use someone else's, please ask first (since its their property.)
5. I have no Oxygen USP on board, and as such there is no "prescription or drug" issue with any of the gas(ses) I do have.
6. If you are UNconcsious I will do everything I am able to in order to attempt to save your life. The law provides that I do not have this duty, but I do have this right. Since if you are effectively drowned I cannot kill a dead person, there is no downside to this to you, and there may be a potential upside (I might save your azz.) Feel free to do the same to/for me if you desire if I'm the one in trouble.
7. If you tell me that you think you may be bent or suffering a diving-related injury (e.g. AGE, etc), or if I observe signs and symptoms consistent wth you being bent and upon close questioning you do not deny the possibility, I will alert the USCG on the radio, call DAN if in cell phone range, and endeavor to deliver you to the care of qualified professionals in the most reasonable fashion under the circumstances. I will also urge you to breathe the aforementioned decompression gas until you can be so transferred. :)

The unfortunate reality is that most "commercial" operations either cannot or will not operate under these kinds of understandings.

I do wonder sometimes how many people get bent following a charter boat dive who (1) knew they did something silly during it, and (2) did not grab the O2 bottle because of the stigma and hassle, along with possible cost of activating EMS for what they thought was a relatively low risk excursion "over the line."

IMHO the use of O2 - not as a "drug" but as a breathable decompression gas - should be encouraged if a diver has any reason to believe they have violated their intended profile and put themselves at enhanced risk of a DCS incident.
 
Genesis once bubbled...

For example in the US there are three commonly-available grades of O2 (ignoring the analytical grades) - welding, aviator's breathing and Oxygen USP.

Excelent post. Anyone intrested in oxygen for either diving or safety use, might want to consider reading the following article, which not only reiterates several of your points, but gives a nice howto for supplying your own oxygen very cheaply.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html
 
James Goddard once bubbled...


Excelent post. Anyone intrested in oxygen for either diving or safety use, might want to consider reading the following article, which not only reiterates several of your points, but gives a nice howto for supplying your own oxygen very cheaply.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182079-1.html

Another great article. Interesting stuff :D
 
Genesis once bubbled...


It may be true that legal nicities may prohibit the automatic "administering" of O2...

BUT, I am aware of NO legal stricture preventing someone from choosing to breathe a breathable gas (not a pharmaceutical product), on their own initiative, on the surface.

This is a very important distinction, although it turns on legal definitions of what is and is not in a given bottle, and who does what.

Oxygen USP is "medical grade." Its claim to fame is that it requires a prescription to dispense or administer, and/or "training" (e.g. EMS folks, etc) This is the stuff that you cannot buy and consume without a prescription. There are also strictures on putting anything other than it in a bottle labelled "Oxygen USP" (federal law on manufacturing of a prescription drug!), etc.

So..... if you come up from a dive, and feel you've blown your intended profile, your options are nowhere near as limited as you might think.

If they have Aviator's Breathing O2 on board, irrespective of what kind of bottle it is contained in, if you have a means of breathing it you are free to grab and consume it (legally-speaking), since you are not "administering" anything - you are consuming a freely-sold breathable gas.

If that bottle contains Oxygen USP (and is so labelled) then legally one should be "O2 provider certified" to "administer" it, whether to one's self or others, and legally doing so may trigger a whole chain of "standard of care" requirements (again, depending on who's doing it and what their relationship is to you.)

The distinction here is not minor.

The difference in "wash-out" rates between breathing air and pure, 100% O2 on the surface is very significant. It is quite likely that you may avoid a hit you would otherwise take, and if you don't you are almost certainito lessen its severity, by consuming the O2.

I do wonder sometimes how many people get bent following a charter boat dive who (1) knew they did something silly during it, and (2) did not grab the O2 bottle because of the stigma and hassle, along with possible cost of activating EMS for what they thought was a relatively low risk excursion "over the line."

IMHO the use of O2 - not as a "drug" but as a breathable decompression gas - should be encouraged if a diver has any reason to believe they have violated their intended profile and put themselves at enhanced risk of a DCS incident.

As one who is both a certified DMT, and who has the "certificate suitable for framing" of a DAN O2 Instructor", I would have to say that Genesis' write-up is (choosing his words carefully) very informative. I would have only minor disagreement with one or two points, and I would echo his insistence that more people should take advantadge of it, if available.

(1) Even if the bottle says "Medical Grade USP Oxygen" an individual may choose to "self-medicate" with it without restriction. It is not a controlled substance in the same sense that narcotics are, for instance.

(2) If the individual is conscious, DAN providers are trained to make the request to administer first, for unfortunately obvious legal reasons. If the individual is unconscious, ANY volunteer may make common-sense efforts to aid him (or her) and be protected by Good Samaritan laws.

I would have to say that it is perhaps a sad comment on our society that someone such as Genesis must go to such lengths to protect himself legally, but "C'est la bloody Guerre!" as the Brits are wont to say. :pity:

The web links posted by James Goddard and Jeff Lane are very informative on the "How to's", so to speak. Also, never forget the "Oxgen Hacker's Companion" by Airspeed Press! :wink:
 
... thanks for sharing your knowledge and thoughts on oxygen in the United States. I'll certainly keep that in mind when I visit. :wink:

I didn't quite get the about "doctor-games" - personally I will listen very carefully to hyperbaric physicians and to DAN - and I don't agree that all dives in any way are compulsory decompression dives (which is the point of this thread) and there's certainly more to slowly decompressing during a "no-decompression" recreational dive than surface intervals (e.g. slow ascents, safety stops).

But that apart, in the main I found your post very informative and laudable and particularly would like to reinforce that
Anyone who believes they may be at enhanced risk of a DCS hit and who does not grab the bottle and consume it in such a situation is, IMHO, a fool.
Yes. Totally agreed.

Of course, in many countries there's no legal song-and-dance at all, if it's there you can use it. And of course, no diver should ever use a dive operator who hasn't got oxygen onboard. :boom:
 
Readers:

Again, my thanks to those who wrote replies to the question. These comments are appreciated by one and all.

My feeling, once again, is that a large range of safety exists in “table limits.” For someone who overstays the NDL and requires a ten-foot stop, I would probably not bother to reenter the water. Missed 20-foot is probably different matter as that is becoming considerable. That is not recreational diving, however.

I am concerned about the lady in California, approximately two years ago, who considered herself at risk, hastily gathered another air tank, and reentered the water against the advice of others on board (who advised a wait-and-see approach to the situation). Unfortunately, in her haste, something terrible resulted and she drowned. Most likely, there was little reason for the reentry.

Surface oxygen is a wonderful thing.

Dr Deco
 
The aviation link posted previously talks about just blasting in fills.

That is a VERY bad idea.

O2 valves should always be opened VERY slowly, and fills should also always be done VERY slowly. If you're going to transfill as was noted in the article, you should make your whip as follows:

Nipple (for supply tank) > supply gauge > needle valve > fill hose > bleed > fitting to go to tank to be filled.

EVERYTHING up to the hose should be made of BRASS (the reason for this will be obvious below.) In fact, it is best if everything other than the hose is made of brass! You can build such a whip from parts available from Swagelock and McMaster-Carr for about $100-150, including a DIN (or yoke) filler for scuba-related applications. The expensive parts are the needle valve and filler attachment - the hose and fittings are cheap.

The idea here is that the true needle valve (NOT a scuba "fill valve) allows you to add in the O2 VERY slowly. This does two things for you - it prevents adiabatic heating (from the flow of gas colliding with something like a bend or restriction, and being heated by the sudden compression) AND the expansion through the needle cools the gas, which makes it even LESS likely for you to suffer a problem.

You will get away with blasting in a fill 99 times out of 100. The 100th time, it will blow up in your face. If it blows up you will not be able to put out the fire (assuming you survive the initial explosion) until and unless you can cut off the Oxygen flow.

Things that people think of as "non-flammable" are in the presence of high-pressure O2. Like teflon-core braided hoses rated for pure O2, as an instance. Get it hot enough to ignite, and it WILL burn. Even steel will do so (how do you think they cut it with an oxy-acetylene torch?)

Just about the only metal that is "safe" with high pressure O2 is brass - it will NOT burn up to ~10,000 psi of O2, which is way beyond anything you'll ever use for Scuba. This is why, by the way, brass is the preferred material for deco regs! (Iconel is good too, but you won't like the price!) The other advantage of brass is that it will not create sparks.

I mix my own Nitrox, and otherwise use pressurized O2 pretty regularly - and have, since I used to do a fair bit of gas welding (don't do much of it anymore though.) I've yet to blow up :)

Its not particularly dangerous IF you pay attention, but as with all things that can hurt you complacency is the biggest danger.
 

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