Going back down to stop deco

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

and I don't agree that all dives in any way are compulsory decompression dives (which is the point of this thread) and there's certainly more to slowly decompressing during a "no-decompression" recreational dive than surface intervals (e.g. slow ascents, safety stops).

ALL dives are compulsory decompression dives.

We must decompress. We do get out of the water, obviously.

You begin to decompress as soon as you rise above the equilibrium point of the absorbed inert gas for the fastest tissue in your body, and you continue to do so until you are fully desaturated, which is, from a statistical point of view, at ten half-times of the slowest tissue group. Most computers consider the slowest tissue group to have a 10 hour time, so that puts the "desat" time for most computers and dive planning tools at 100 hours.

The entire concept that the "major agencies" push about "no-deco" diving is a farce and IMHO is one of the worst "misfeatures" of how they teach this sport. If you think about how they teach you to dive, and the tables and such they use, its obvious they're being fast and loose with terminology, but few people analyze it at that level.

That's too bad, because understanding this is CRITICAL when things go wrong and you are trying to figure out what you want to do about it.

We call dives "deco dives" if the CEILING is less than 0 fsw/ffw, but in truth ALL dives are deco dives. All that happens is that our ascent rate must be slower if we have taken up more inert gas. We accomplish this in deco diving by making "stops"; we could do the same thing with graduated ascents carefully calibrated as to their speed, but its far easier to say "stop at 20' for 10 minutes" than to say "ascend from 30 to 20' at a rate which requires 10 minutes to complete." Yet the latter, arguably, is the "better" procedure, in that it would lead to a cleaner ultimate result.

The overpressure of Nitrogen (and/or Helium) in your tissues comes out over time during your ascent and on the surface. The rate at which it comes out of each of your tissues' solution is largely controlled by the difference in saturation levels between the various tissues between the one with the gas, and your lung's airspace. For most tissues this means the blood - which has a very "fast" half-time.

So, if you breathe pure O2, you will in a short period of time remove almost ALL of the dissolved nitrogen in the blood. This greatly raises the differential between the blood and your other tissues. The result is that the nitrogen will leave your body faster.

This is WHY technical divers use high-PPO2 gasses for the in-water part of their decompression, up to and including 100% O2 at shallow stops.

But you can take advantage of this too if you are at risk, without going back in the water. Simply grab the O2 and breathe it at 100%. You will flush all the nitrogen from your blood, which will then "pull" the remaining nitrogen from your other tissues. If you have an excess amount of it in your body - enough to have caused bubbles to form and grow in size - you MAY be able to pull enough of it out of those tissues, or even out of the bubbles themselves and back into solution, to prevent or arrest an incipient DCS hit.

But let's say you fail and get hit anyway. Well, not only did you at least try, but you have lowered the remaining overpressure in your tissues. As such the hit SHOULD be less serious than it would have otherwise been.

There are essentially no contraindications to an hour or two worth of surface O2 if (1) you are in good enough health to be diving in the first place, and (2) you have a reason to believe you're at increased risk. Serious pulmonary issues don't begin to appear for 12 hours or so, and you can even stave THOSE off with air breaks. Even if you DO get put in the chamber subsequently for a hit, the amount of O2 "whole body" clock time you accumulate breathing the pure O2 for two hours is not going to be a factor in limiting your treatment.

An hour's worth of pure O2 on the surface will wash out an enormous amount of residual nitrogen. If you believe you're at risk grab the bottle - its cheap, literally a couple of bucks worth of the gas - and it might save you a chamber ride.
 
Genesis once bubbled...


(1) ALL dives are compulsory decompression dives.

We must decompress. We do get out of the water, obviously.

(2) An hour's worth of pure O2 on the surface will wash out an enormous amount of residual nitrogen. If you believe you're at risk grab the bottle - its cheap, literally a couple of bucks worth of the gas - and it might save you a chamber ride.

------------------------------------------------------------

(1) It might be better to state it by saying that ALL dives require decompression in SOME fashion. In those dives without REQUIRED decompression STOPS, the ascent rate takes care of it.

(2) HEAR, HEAR! As Mr. Natural used to say: "Get the right tool for the job, kids!":thumb:
 
The semantics are least important when you are involved in a discussion between people that have a good working knowledge of the entire on and off gassing process. This forum looks to be one of those places where educated people can agree to disagree, but do so using sophisticated thought processes obtained through practical diving and advanced education.

Where the breakdown occurs is at the basic entry level certification. I agree that teaching the layperson that there is no deco occurring if you stick to NDL’s on a RDP is misleading. I am of the school that would like to see entry level OW courses teaching the philosophy that all diving has a deco component and only the method in which that deco obligation is met is variable.

When ascending from a traditional NDL dive profile, I visualize what’s happening physiologically and ascend very slowly. I am lucky in that I have been trained to think about what is occurring physiologically, but entry level divers from all sorts of backgrounds may not automatically start to think like that. Perhaps we should teach them more than, “if you stick to this column on the RDP you are performing a no deco dive”.

I understand fully how difficult it is to get people to understand that all diving is deco diving. I have argued this point many times with friends and family. Perhaps the toughest person to get to think properly was my wife. It’s difficult to have that “you have to listen to me because I am right” conversation with a spouse. For some reason people look to diving professionals as a source of privileged information that must be true if they speak it. For that reason alone, I see it worth mentioning in entry level training that all diving requires deco.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
Nipple (for supply tank) > supply gauge > needle valve > fill hose > bleed > fitting to go to tank to be filled.

Tough call if you're only using one gauge, but if the whip is to be used for PP fills (rather than a pure O2 transfill, I would assemble the whip as follows:
Nipple (for supply tank) > needle valve > "target" gauge > fill hose > bleed > fitting to go to tank to be filled.

If you're ONLY doing transfills for your emergency/deco O2, then all you care about is final (target) pressure, which will be the same as the supply cylinder pressure, so it doesn't matter on which side of the needle valve you put the gauge... when the gas stops flowing it's equalized (though how do you know it's done without two gauges?)

If you're doing PP blending, then it is certainly better to have two gauges so you won't accidentally backfill from the scuba tank to the supply cylinder, but if you have only one gauge, then it MUST be beyond the needle valve.


Just about the only metal that is "safe" with high pressure O2 is brass - it will NOT burn up to ~10,000 psi of O2, which is way beyond anything you'll ever use for Scuba.
For the time being :)
 
I carry two E cylinders on my boat and I cannot legally administer it to anyone but I can strongly encourage them to choose to use it themselves.

Getting the tanks filled is not a problem as the dive shop I use will transfill them from the aviator 02 tanks used in blending nitrox.

A presciption was however required to locally purchase a supply of 02 masks. You can get around his however by buying them from DAN.

I keep it on the boat anytime I am diving and agree it is a case of better safe than sorry if you have any concern about possible risk of DCS.
 
If you're using it to transfill (not PP mix) then you want the gauge on the supply side, because you need to check the supply bottle BEFORE you open the needle valve to insure that you're not wasting your time! Remember, the destination HAS a gauge which you can note before you hook up to it.

If you're using the whip to PP Mix then you need TWO gauges - one on each side of the needle valve, and the one on the "target" side must be high enough resolution (or at least repeatability) to get stable mix results.
 
When ascending from a traditional NDL dive profile, I visualize what’s happening physiologically and ascend very slowly.
Yes, same here, even on very shallow NDL dives. I also enjoy long surface intervals if I can.

That said, I still don't like the 'technical trend' prevalent in discussing recreational dives. The thing is that with compulsory decompression diving, i.e. diving with classical decompression stops, a blown stop or two is very serious thing and requires urgent action. This in turn requires the necessary training, experience and equipment.

Teaching newbie divers that they are at great risk of DCI on an NDL dive if, say, for some reason a voluntary safety stop - although always recommended - is cut short or blown could well lead to more incidents like the tragic Californian one that Dr Deco mentioned. I'm therefore rather happy with the recreational agencies out there. Unlike what is sometimes argued on this board, most instructors from all recreational agencies do get people diving reasonably safely in general. (But this is off-topic).

True, diving with recreational divers one sometimes sees how many of them rush to an arbitrary 5 metre safety stop (sometimes even at 18m/min) and then after their three minutes, rush up to surface ... :rolleyes:

That's not how I was taught, and I'm indebted to my OW instructor for helping me along before I understood the concepts myself.

So, I'm not at odds with anyone in the posts above. :D

I repeat: slow ascents, (gladly several) safety stops and long surface intervals are the best way of diving recreationally.

This can never be repeated enough. But I think there's a tendency on many boards to make recreational dives over-technical, overemphasizing entanglement hazards for example (on a reef dive?) and sometimes arguing very exact stop depths, that's all.

I'm very glad everybody stresses the importance of surface oxygen. It's amazing that some dive operators skip on this, and it's sad to read all the accounts of people who - probably due to imperfect dive profiles and techniques - have developed problems on the boat and who've waited several hours without oxygen (whether it's available or not) before eventually getting themselves to an A&E or other out-clinic.
 
If you have a case like the Rouse incident from "The Last Dive" I imagine that an in water re-comp, deco would be preferable to the out of water results.

Peter
 
pdoege once bubbled...
If you have a case like the Rouse incident from "The Last Dive" I imagine that an in water re-comp, deco would be preferable to the out of water results.

Peter

In the case of the Rouses, they were badly impaired by the time they hit the surface. This would be an excellent example of a situation where in water recompression would not have been possible.

As pointed out in the book the available on shore deco chamber was capable of 165 ft which was inadequate to treat the situation effectively. The long wait for evacuation and the time needed to get to a chamber essentially meant that short of an onboard recompression chamber, they were as good as dead when they hit the surface.

Personally I wonder if one of the portable inflatable chambers capable of pressures down to 60' would have helped during the wait for evacuation and during the evacuation process.
 
Well, the Rouses were screwed on a number of issues.

Bad gas selection, no safety divers, no backup equipment ready on the boat.

They were alive in the water. If they had tanks and gear ready to go on the boat they could have just gone back down.

Apparently they, and the scuba world in general, do not even plan for these things.

I realize that taking a bent diver back down to 220' or whatever their first missed stop was is sort of extreme. However, when you are doing extreme diving, you have to at least think about these things.

If I was in that situation, I would want someone to take my butt back down. Hell, drop me a tank of deco gas and I'll go back down. Send a diver with additional gas when you are ready. An iffy chopper ride and iffy deco chamber ride is pretty suicidal at that point.

Still, without a plan and preparation they were pretty much dead.

Peter
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom