Gold Line past 3000 feet at Ginnie needs replacing

[ucfdiver]

This thread was started from T2T general discussion - posts were moved here so as to not hijack the other discussion.

Earlier this year a friend of mine and I became separated about 3500 feet back in a cave. The depth was 100 feet and the separation happened after we had both called the dive and were exiting the cave. At that point we both had used up 1/3 or more of our gas supply and were looking at around 30 mins of deco once we exited.

My buddy was behind me and when I realized he was not there I turned to go look for him. As Murphy had it he had accidentally jumped onto another line, when I passed that jump I did not see him as he was 50-75 feet down that jump.

He realized that he was on the wrong line, turned around and got back onto the correct line. He expected I was still in front of him and continued to exit -- he got to the point where we had tied off scooters and stage bottles and realized that I must now be behind him

He started back into the cave to look for me.

While he was correcting his path and starting to exit from making the wrong jump I am now a couple of 100 feet farther into the cave looking for him.

We both knew the protocol, we both knew that we would use a pre-determined volume of gas to look for our buddy. We used that volume of gas and both began our exits at about the same time.

When I got to the point where we had left scooters & stages, he was just saddling up his scooter & stage & readying to exit.

It was a heart stopper, it was an adrenaline rush, it was freaking me out. While the decision to go ahead and start my exit was emotionally difficult, the decision was rational and obvious and I reluctantly started my exit.

It seemed like a LONG time that we were searching for one another, but later realized it was about 10 minutes.

Bottom line is---> We knew the protocol that we had been trained for and the protocol we train our students for and we stuck to it.

Divers in caves, wreck or open water with a virtual overhead should discuss in advance what the protocol for their team should be, and stick to it.

Jim,

I'm just guessing here, but was this Ginnie? I've heard of a few people getting off on the wrong line since the gold line was removed...high flow and short jumps seem to be a recipe for disaster back there.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Jim,

I'm just guessing here, but was this Ginnie? I've heard of a few people getting off on the wrong line since the gold line was removed...high flow and short jumps seem to be a recipe for disaster back there.

Yes James...the gold line back there needs to be replaced IMO. I have lobbied for it to be put back in & used my position as NSS-CDS safety officer to make the argument. Thus far it has fallen on deaf ears.

There are arguments to not replace it that have been used that have nothing to do with safety.

If more cave divers agree that this line should be reinstalled they should let it be known to the proper people.

 

[ucfdiver]

Yes James...the gold line back there needs to be replaced IMO. I have lobbied for it to be put back in & used my position as NSS-CDS safety officer to make the argument. Thus far it has fallen on deaf ears.

There are arguments to not replace it that have been used that have nothing to do with safety.

If more cave divers agree that this line should be reinstalled they should let it be known to the proper people.

I'll write a letter today if you can let me know who would be the best person to contact.

I'll personally replace it if it's a case where someone just doesn't want to do it...when it's become a big enough safety issue that all you have to say is "lost on the wrong line in the back of a cave" and people know exactly which cave you're talking about, it's time to rethink things IMO.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Is there any reason it shouldn't be gold line?

I think the only argument I've heard is "so people will know not to scooter past 3000 feet."

That's bollocks. Anyone back that far should be responsible enough to know when and where to drop their scooter. The entire idea of goldline was born out of accident analysis, to knowingly replacing perfectly good gold line with white line just because you have a need for power makes about as much sense as telling people they don't need 3 lights, or that they don't need to run jumps, or that they don't need to exit after thirds, or any other guideline of accident analysis. Just because the use of goldline isn't in the guidelines doesn't mean it's not something we've learned from accident analysis. Am I missing something, or was this done purely because someone was on a power trip?

I think it should be changed back to gold. Who are the appropriate people? Why is it hard to find the appropriate people? Seems like there should be a list somewhere easy to find of exactly who is on the line committees, and when they meet, and a way to submit suggestions about the lines.

 

[ucfdiver]

Is there any reason it shouldn't be gold line?

I think the only argument I've heard is "so people will know not to scooter past 3000 feet."

That's bollocks. Anyone back that far should be responsible enough to know when and where to drop their scooter. The entire idea of goldline was born out of accident analysis, to knowingly replacing perfectly good gold line with white line just because you have a need for power makes about as much sense as telling people they don't need 3 lights, or that they don't need to run jumps, or that they don't need to exit after thirds, or any other guideline of accident analysis. Just because the use of goldline isn't in the guidelines doesn't mean it's not something we've learned from accident analysis. Am I missing something, or was this done purely because someone was on a power trip?

I think it should be changed back to gold. Who are the appropriate people? Why is it hard to find the appropriate people? Seems like there should be a list somewhere easy to find of exactly who is on the line committees, and when they meet, and a way to submit suggestions about the lines.

I understood it as a knee jerk reaction to Fyvie's death as well as the incident where Agnes was reported missing just to later find that she had a scooter failure and exited on slim reserves.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

The line committe there as far as I know consists of Lamar Hires, larry Green, Bill Main, Doug Chappell and the safety officers for the NSS-CDS and NACD. At one point Jeff Hancock was on it...

Rose Meadows attends the meetings as a representative of the landowner. Mark Wray may also attend the meetings. I have never attended one of these meetings.

This is a sore subject for people on both sides of the fence.

The ONLY approach effecting this change is a rational, unemotional and well thought out one. If anyone decides to take on this issue be advised that the approach I just laid out is the only one that MAY work.

Cave divers have a history and reputation for being pushy and "know-it-all" - there are 2 sides, you all know which side of the issue I am on. Please approach this with care if you choose to approach it.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

How does changing the colour of the line help someone who broke thirds, or someone who didn't plan properly for gas management with scooter failure? Do you think that spray painting my tires white will keep them from ever going flat? Perhaps wearing a headband will keep me from failing a test?



It's very simple, using a white line as the main line has been shown to be a factor in several fatalities. Using gold line as the main line has not, to my knowledge, been shown to be a factor in any fatalities (correlation does not prove causation. Yes, more people have died with goldline, but they did not die because the line was gold. However, several people have died because they were on a jump line and not the main line.)

The colour of the line did not cause Fyvie's death and it did not make Agnes screw up, either. However, the white line has caused Jim, his buddy, and Ainslie to all have mishaps. Looking at it, from a simple scoreboard setup, we have:

Problems caused by gold line: 0
Problems caused by white line in place of what should be gold line: 3 and counting

The rational, unemotional approach says there should be gold line in there.

 

[ucfdiver]

The line committe there as far as I know consists of Lamar Hires, larry Green, Bill Main, Doug Chappell and the safety officers for the NSS-CDS and NACD. At one point Jeff Hancock was on it...

Rose Meadows attends the meetings as a representative of the landowner. Mark Wray may also attend the meetings. I have never attended one of these meetings.

This is a sore subject for people on both sides of the fence.

The ONLY approach effecting this change is a rational, unemotional and well thought out one. If anyone decides to take on this issue be advised that the approach I just laid out is the only one that MAY work.

Cave divers have a history and reputation for being pushy and "know-it-all" - there are 2 sides, you all know which side of the issue I am on. Please approach this with care if you choose to approach it.

I would like to attempt to get a clear understanding of the opposing view before presenting my argument. Do you know if anyone has put forth reasons for leaving it white other than the DPV issue? I think it's fairly accurate to say most ignore that.

The reasons I would like to see it replaced are-

• The existing white line is showing wear already from the traffic and stirring up sand.
• Divers becoming disoriented seems to happen somewhat often in this area.

My only fear with going to Rose and saying "no one listens to your rule anyways, so let's get rid of it" is that she might decide to get rid of DPV's instead. Rose has already mentioned it to a few people. If Ginnie bans DPV's, I'd quit diving there-- I have zero interest swimming against the flow in that cave...and I kind of like having a place to test gear.

How does changing the colour of the line help someone who broke thirds, or someone who didn't plan properly for gas management with scooter failure? Do you think that spray painting my tires white will keep them from ever going flat? Perhaps wearing a headband will keep me from failing a test?



It's very simple, using a white line as the main line has been shown to be a factor in several fatalities. Using gold line as the main line has not, to my knowledge, been shown to be a factor in any fatalities (correlation does not prove causation. Yes, more people have died with goldline, but they did not die because the line was gold. However, several people have died because they were on a jump line and not the main line.)

The colour of the line did not cause Fyvie's death and it did not make Agnes screw up, either. However, the white line has caused Jim, his buddy, and Ainslie to all have mishaps. Looking at it, from a simple scoreboard setup, we have:

Problems caused by gold line: 0
Problems caused by white line in place of what should be gold line: 3 and counting

The rational, unemotional approach says there should be gold line in there.

I think it's reasonable to believe divers are more aggressive on gold line than white. Careful using those types of statements, they could easily say Jim's buddy didn't get lost because the color of the line, he got lost because he didn't pay enough attention. I think we're better figuring out what their reasons are and going from there.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

Anyone is welcome to call me and discuss this in more detail. 352-363-0013

 

[TSandM]

I've never been that far back in Ginnie -- are there reach gaps back there?

I ask because there is no gold line in MX except in the tourist cavern caves, and there are a lot of scary short jumps, but people don't get lost very often. I know (intensely, from personal experience) that flow can cause issues, but I would think that folks who are back in that area of the cave would be used to handling it. Is it possible that FL folks have gotten overly dependent on gold line for orientation, and aren't reading the cave as well as they ought?