Got Narced at Gilboa - and I thought that I would 'share' (Another Long post)

[Popeye]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...


Again with name calling? How old are we now. I think if one goes and looks at the posts you have made in the last few days, not just the ones in the thread it can be determined that you are not big on trimix and think it basically has no benefits despite many many supports in both recreational and commercial divnig. So basically you are stating all the experts are wrong and that you opinion, based on your experieces not scientific evidence, is corret. Here are your exact words, now tell me you not saying this and maybe you will regain some of my respect.

First off, you can well rest assured that I don't care who you do and don't respect.

Secondly, within the context of the thread, we're talking about an 84 ft dive. My marks are addressed to that parameter, and the misunderstanding is yours. To think I am not big on trimix is (another) a gross misunderstanding on your part. But to assume it is a cure-all, like Mike does, is a dangerous attitude.

Although I didn't state that all the experts are wrong about trimix, I don't hesitate to question experts, as you have seen.

My point that arbitrary limits set by agencies don't address real world situations has been proven by Mike himself, just by providing this thread. Now that -that- cat is out of the bag, Mike is waffling on whether this incident was narcosis at all, another -grand- assumption on his part, good company for several others that he made already in this thread.

Besides professional discourtesy to Hal Watts, it's the only point that I've had.

And there's a difference between name calling and simplistic description.

Your initial post was assumptive, rude and insinuating, yet you attempt to chastise me for plain speaking, which, among your many other talents makes you a hypocrite.

As soon as you apologize, and earn some respect, maybe we can dwell on who you choose to respect.

 

[cstreu1026]

I'm suppose to appologise? Well I have been nothing but respectful and curtious up until the point that you said that I am not bright and a black hole. At that point I lost all respect for you as a diver and even a human being. You don't know be from Adam and have NO information to make any statement like that. As far as waiting for any form of an apology....don't hold your breath.

I am going to go the way of Mike. I am going to just move on because you will only see things from your point of view and do not seem to be able to accept the possibility that anyone else is right. You shouldn't feel compelled to respond to this because I don't intend to respond to anything else you have to say. I am just thankful I don't have to dive with you.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Popeye once bubbled...
My point that arbitrary limits set by agencies don't address real world situations

Popeye, you believe these agencies pull these depths and times out of their butt ... is that what you really think? That is a H*U*G*E assumption. Tell me what proof you have of there arbitrary nature?

 

[Big-t-2538]

Popeye once bubbled...


First off, you can well rest assured that I don't care who you do

Here's where I stopped reading....not intentionally...my mind just wandered...I thought I'd share....

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


First off, you can well rest assured that I don't care who you do and don't respect.

Secondly, within the context of the thread, we're talking about an 84 ft dive. My marks are addressed to that parameter, and the misunderstanding is yours. To think I am not big on trimix is (another) a gross misunderstanding on your part. But to assume it is a cure-all, like Mike does, is a dangerous attitude.

I didn't ever say trimix was a cure all. Again you say what you want and say it's my words.

Although I didn't state that all the experts are wrong about trimix, I don't hesitate to question experts, as you have seen.

My point that arbitrary limits set by agencies don't address real world situations has been proven by Mike himself, just by providing this thread. Now that -that- cat is out of the bag, Mike is waffling on whether this incident was narcosis at all, another -grand- assumption on his part, good company for several others that he made already in this thread.

This proves your lack of understanding of the conversation. I pointed to this thread because it was an example of a Gilboa incident. I never said nor do I believe that the main issue on this dive was narcosis. In fact this thread is a good case FOR the limits recommended by the agencies. This diver is a relative novice. I don't know if he had completed advanced training at that time or not (I didn't get the impression he had). Agencies recommend that novice divers stay above 60 ft or so and GILBOA rules state you must have advanced certification to go over the wall. Those rules exist because of many dives like this.

Besides professional discourtesy to Hal Watts, it's the only point that I've had.

All I did was state he has had some adventures with narcosis. That is a fact. I later refered to the Mystery Sink dives as a CF. I have posted the reference (I got my book back) and those dives were even more of a CF than I remembered and resulted in the deaths of a 16 year old boy and a safety diver who tried to help recover his body. I stand by my description of the dives. You will no doubt say that there wasn't a problem.

 

[MikeFerrara]

To be clear since others insist on putting words in my mouth, I do not think this diver should have had trimix training. I think he should have had more training/experience PERIOD before doing the dive he was doing. We see situations like this often. When divers have trouble at 84 ft the issue is basic skills and experience to a greater degree than narcosis. Funny that while Popeye accuses me of overstating the things I see at places like Gilboa he is apparantly ignorant of the fact that Gilboa management has tightened up their RULES precisely because of such incedents. They in fact insist that divers wear a wrist band declaring their training level to the world in an effort to keep them out of certain areas of the quarry because they get in trouble. They also insist that divers fill out and submit a deep dive plan to the owner for approval before being allowed on the deep side of the quarry or below 80 ft. When these divers are left alone to make their own decisions they find their skills are not adequate and they get in trouble. Just the oposite of what you would expect to see if Popeye's assertions that divers are sufficiently prepared were correct. What do you know, more ärbitrary limits!

 

[Popeye]

cstreu1026 once bubbled... I'm suppose to appologise? Well I have been nothing but respectful and curtious up until the point that you said that I am not bright and a black hole. At that point I lost all respect for you as a diver and even a human being. You don't know be from Adam and have NO information to make any statement like that. As far as waiting for any form of an apology....don't hold your breath.

Hmmm. Your first post is below*. It was assumptive, disrespectful and discourteous. As you have accused me of being. How odd.

I am going to go the way of Mike.

I'm sure you two will be very happy together, especially since your confidence in his ability seems to be predicated on his abilities as a parking lot attendant**. You seem to know him well, so, with less than 20 dives***, you're either one of his students, or don't have a clue what you're talking about. Either way you're a poor judge by your own standards, since you've never met me or seen me dive, as you pointed out.

I am going to just move on because you will only see things from your point of view and do not seem to be able to accept the possibility that anyone else is right. You shouldn't feel compelled to respond to this because I don't intend to respond to anything else you have to say.

Why start a trend? You haven't responded to anything I've had to say yet.

I am just thankful I don't have to dive with you.

My luck is getting better every day.

And besides, I park where ever I want.

*I see a trend starting where he wants to pick a fight with MF. This is not the first post i have seen hi do that. I personally am not willing to take on Mike's vast knowledge of all, or at least most things diving. I agree though, don't dignify his post with a response when doesn't seem willing to listen and learn. Some people truly beleive their way is the only way and all others are wrong.

**I applaud Mike at Gilboa for doing what he has. There is only so much one can do to police divers and he seems to do what he can. I definitely know I do not want to get on his bad side as I witnesses him chewing someone out for parking in the wrong place.

***But I have less than 20 dives under my belt at this point.

Quotes from "cstreu1026"

 

[Popeye]

DiverBuoy once bubbled...


Popeye, you believe these agencies pull these depths and times out of their butt ... is that what you really think? That is a H*U*G*E assumption. Tell me what proof you have of there arbitrary nature?

I don't think they pulled them out of their butts, but I do believe it's several shades of gray area, and not a thin red line. This thread is proof positive of that.

Do you get narced at -precisely- 130 ft whenever you dive?

First off, ask yourself where the arbitrary limit of 130 ft between rec diving and tec diving comes from.

Or why not all agencies agree on the same depth limits for similar stages of training?

Secondly, from an OW 60ft limit stand point, what's the difference in danger between a 30 ft low viz swift current river dive, say, Cooper River, and a 65 ft warm water hi viz reef dive, say, the inside reef at Boynton?

Which dive is a greater risk?

Then, particular to this thread, why assume trimix on an END of 100ft will help when you get narced at 84ft?

These depth limits only serve as marketing factors for scuba instruction.

Sure, they're all we got, but they aren't solid walls.

That's why I -keep- saying: Training and knowing your limits is the answer.

If you wanna dive Heliox at 50ft, that's fine with me, but if I choose Nitrox at 140, or even air, don't run around in circles and chant.

Mike asked if I was recommending Deep Air training over Trimix training in this incident, and frankly, no matter how painful you find the truth, Deep Air training (exposure to narcosis) would have helped this diver more than any (conventional) Trimix training.

Of course, that was before Mike decided it wasn't narcosis...