Got Narced at Gilboa - and I thought that I would 'share' (Another Long post)

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


You need to read up on the cause and effect of spatial disorientation. Regardless, whether or not he was narced, no training you endorse would have prepared him to handle that particular part of his episode. As I already said, once his mistake was made, for whatever reason, he obviously handled the situation quite well, despite his disorientation.

I have read about, experienced and witnessed divers experiencing virtigo. I asked you how it could make a diver think he was out of air. I have never read of, heard of or witnesse virtigo causing a diver to think he is out of air. Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Exactly what training do you think I endorse? How do you know it wouldn't have helped him.

I don't answer all your questions in every post because all you do is ask questions about what I said but YOU NEVER SAY ANYTHING.

I haven't ever said there was anything wrong with roosters class. What are you trying to get me to say?

Hey a short story...An Advanced Nitrox student an I were beginning our ascent near the trapeze at Gilboa when I noticed two divers at the bottom who appeared to be "wrestling?" or floundering?" for lack of better terms. In either case it looked like they were in some kind of trouble. It was hard to tell exactly what the problem was because they silted things up pretty bad and they were partially in the cloud. I had my student shoot her bag from where we were so I could watch a a little longer. The two divers began to climb the rope hand over hand in "clumsy?" mannor. At this point I saw that one of the divers had a mesh bag with small plastic botle and some other stuff in it. I later confirmed it was an instructor with a student on a deep dive. I THINK the instructor was the one with the bag.

Is this an example of the superior training you refer too as apposed to the kind of training you THINK I endorse?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


First, that was a slippery side step, but my point was:

"This does show one really cool thing though:

If the original poster had a $1000 dollar trimix ticket, and a END of 100, let alone 130,

HE STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN NARCED.

Once again showing the foolishness of an arbitrary limit.

Maybe, just maybe, a little experience with narcosis would have given him the necessary tools to handle the situation, or recognise it earlier."

Any comment on that? Narced at 84'?

No side step. Why do you think these divers were having trouble and how would you have them avoid it?

You are correct if one could get so narked at 84 feet diving with an END of 100 ft would be a problem for that diver. Have you ever seen that? I haven't. Are you suggesting that the ärbitrary limit of 130 is too deep? Maybe that's why some advocate a shallower ärbitrary limit. That might be one reason why agancies recomment that entry level divers remain at or above the "ärbitrary" limit of 60 ft.

Are you saying that practicing being narced would have avoided this divers problem? Just what are you saying? I think your saying there wasn't any problem at all.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Perhaps you can enlighten me.

No, Mike, I don't think I can.

This is beginning to look like a Monty Python skit.

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I don't answer all your questions in every post because all you do is ask questions about what I said but YOU NEVER SAY ANYTHING.

That's because you never answer the questions.

Besides, your questions are less than direct.

My questions: "Will an END of 100' help with a narc at 84 ft?"

(asked three times, and finally answered, sort of)

Your questions:"Why do regulators free flow at Gilboa?"

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popey,

Let's try one very direct question. You said his problem was probably cold water in one ear. I ask, how can that cause a diver to believe he is out of air?

Let's try another streight foreward Question. Do you know of anything that we know of diving phisiology that can cause one to believe they are out of air or not getting enough air?

quote:
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MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Perhaps you can enlighten me.
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Popeye said...

No, Mike, I don't think I can.

I didn't think so.

 

[cstreu1026]

I don't see where cold water in either one ear ro both could cause someone to think he/she was out of air. Of course I don't have a knowledge of diving physiology, but I don't ever remember readin anywhere that cold water in the ears can be responsible for irrational decisions. I do beleive main cause of the problem in the original post is the lack of experience. I know going "deep" still scares me and I prefer to stay shallow. But I have less than 20 dives under my belt at this point. I think it all to common, especially with male divers to think of deep diving as just a way to impress people. Too often divers are injured becaue of lack of proper training or proper equipment. Even the most experienced divers can have problems and the scenario that started this thread just goes to show that you don't have to be diving to 200ft. on air to have problems.

Also, I have to agree that a lot of diving that goes on at Gilboa is done by students and instructors that are not prepared for what they can and will encounter there. I have heard some real horro stories about things that go on there and the shop I do my training with seems to prefer not to take open water students there do to the nonsense that goes on.

 

[wb416]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...

Also, I have to agree that a lot of diving that goes on at Gilboa is done by students and instructors that are not prepared for what they can and will encounter there. I have heard some real horro stories about things that go on there and the shop I do my training with seems to prefer not to take open water students there do to the nonsense that goes on.

You should probably ask your instructor/LDS to alert Mike @ Gilboa. If there are tangible steps that he can take to overcome these things he is open for suggestions. On the other hand, there's only so much "policing" that one can do from the surface.

...until they start hiring UW police that'll yank c-cards and issue fines

Seriously though... Mike would like to know about this stuff.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Hi all,

We and (I) talk alot about what we see at Gilboa. I also talk about what I see at Haigh and France Park. Gilboa and Haigh are probably two of the busiest dive sites in the country if not the worls. In fact a compressor dealer told mike he was the largest gas pumper in the world. I believe it since he just purchased a 140 cu ft /min compressor. Mike at Gilboa and Tina at Haigh are both extremely safety minded and do what they can. However, in the end safety is up to the divers and/or their instructors. It is NOT because of management that we see so many goofy things go on at these places. It is the divers and there are alot of them at these sites. IMO, if you want a snap shot of the state of diving Gilboa or Haigh (to a lesser degree because it doesn't have the depth) on a Sat. is a good place to look. You have everything from students to some of the most seasoned instructors and technical divers diving and teaching at these sites. In fact I have talked to two different agencies and recommended that they spend some time at these dive sites because I have seen more blatant violations of training standards in one day than I ever thought I would see in a lifetime.

I have spent hours describing the things I have seen to Mike (owner of Gilboa). He hears the same report from others as well as his own observations. He does what he can. The policy/enforcements changes he has made have made a difference. The rules have also made some divers unhappy but not as unhappy as they might be without the rules. He is willing to hear suggestion. Given what things in the industry are like I don't have any beyond what is being done.

Tina (owner of Haigh) will allow as many DM's in at no charge as an instructor wants to bring. I have done classes where I had a DM for every student.

IMO both of these people deserve to be commended for the efforts and judgement they have displayed in the interest of providing the best/safest dive sites possible.

 

[cstreu1026]

I think the "accidents" and close calls are only part of the problem. In the height of the summer season I think the crowds play more of a role. Over all I had a much better diving experience at Gilboa than I did Portage. However, even visiting Portage on a weekend in the middle of the sumemr was less crowded than when I did my OW at Gilboa in the middle of October.

I applaud Mike at Gilboa for doing what he has. There is only so much one can do to police divers and he seems to do what he can. I definitely know I do not want to get on his bad side as I witnesses him chewing someone out for parking in the wrong place.

 

[Popeye]

cstreu1026 once bubbled...
I don't see where cold water in either one ear ro both could cause someone to think he/she was out of air. Of course I don't have a knowledge of diving physiology, but I don't ever remember readin anywhere that cold water in the ears can be responsible for irrational decisions. I do beleive main cause of the problem in the original post is the lack of experience.

Please explain what information from the original post leads you to believe this incident was caused by lack of experience.

Please give your opinion of the experience level of the diver (OW, AOW, ect) based on the information you read.

I've asked both these questions of Mike, and he chooses not to answer.

You've clearly stated your opinion, now let's see if you can clearly justify it.

 

[cstreu1026]

How about the fact that seems to be the first time to experience narcosis. To me that shows he probably had little experience diving to deeper depths. The truth is I don't know the level of experience and I don't think you do either. From the information it can be assumed that either the diver has little experience diving period or has little experience diving deep...especially in those type of conditions.