deeper thoughts
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Dean810:
The reef is about 86, I am referring to the shallow flats where we go to swim and relax(Florida bay)
Great conditions in the Straits. +
- Thread starter kidsdream
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The reef is about 86, I am referring to the shallow flats where we go to swim and relax(Florida bay)
sleepdiver
Registered
Hi Jeff. To be as simple as possible. Jim Montcalm and I have been buying all the lines, hardware and buoys the last 5 years. The dive charters supply no buoys or hardware. Currently, the buoys and line not in use are stored at Jim's house. In fairness, the Rec Diver is made available to place buoys and has always been super helpful but we are subject to its schedule and availibility. No other charter or divers provide anything although we do plan to take it up with them as soon as this Great Lakes State Park stuff settles down (which it may be now).
The association is the Straits of Mackinac Shipwreck Preserve Association, Inc, a Michigan non-profit corporation. I am its president. Jim was very committed to promoting diving in the Straits and did it forever. I am too but there is a limit. When things you provide and have never been paid for are used to risk injury to a shipwreck, that is pretty much the limit.
Jim drowned last year on Labor Day on the Newell Eddy. That leaves me. The supplies were purchased on the theory that someday the association would pay for them. That has never happened. We are in about $2500 on supplies and buoys.
On knowing what is going on, the association has tried everything it can think of. It holds an annual Treasure Hunt the second week in August (8/12 this year). We sold a field guide in 2004 and tried to get the people to become "members". About 3 people remitted dues the next year. We published a newsletter and sent it to everyone on the Rec Diver's customer list for the previous 3 years plus anyone who ever attended the Treasure Hunt (several hundred people). We specifically asked for buoy contributions. We got nothing back but postage charges. We have tried selling bumper stickers. We had to give them away. We have recently sold t-shirts but we only make about $4 on each one sold. Basically, we are still struggling to get divers to pay anything. At one time the air station raised the air rate by $2 that was supposed to go to the association. It never did.
We have a plan to place a block on the Sandusky and have for 3 years. We have the block. From NOAA, we have a plan on how to set the line on the buoy to properly hold a boat as large as the Rec Diver. What we need is a method to safely place it on the bottom. We have a location picked - the port stern that is free of debris and she tilts slightly to port at the stern. Basically, the system resembles the Tobermory model.
The problem is placing the block safely. As you know, we cannot just drop a block and hope it lands where we want it. That means using one of the 2 marine contractors in the area. Durocher in Cheboygan is one. The problem is money. These folks do not and cannot work for free. They carry significant insurance coverage and have minimum requirements to comply with work conditions and their insurance. The Rec Diver is not really suited for it because of, among other things, the configuration of the dive platform.
Frankly, as long as things run along smoothly, no one asks why it does. The charters never have been inclined to ask for more money on top of the charter fees - understandable but short-sighted. We have told divers individually while on the charter boat before that we need money. Nothing happens. Honestly, the Association is thinking that if people start to notice the buoys are not being put out and jugs are replacing them, someone will ask why and want to do something. Unfortunately, I do not believe the charters are mentioning this is happening.
Please do not think I am being too hard on you individually. I do not mean to. We are very frustrated because of the effort we put into trying to raise money and buy buoying materials. We have bought buoys from a pawan shop in Salt Lake City and had them sent by Greyhound bus, I drove to Lake Geneva, IL to pick up a truckful of used buoys two years ago, we regularly buy buoys and line off ebay and from governemnt liquidators. Perhaps it is our mistake to not have been this specific before. But we have not been shy in asking for donations.
I am sorry to say it, but divers on the whole are not real aggressive about spending money on things they do not see as a high priority. The thinking here is that if we stop "enabling" them by giving away what they need to contribute to, then they will ask questions and get involved in finding a solution.
Janet Peterson at the Chamber office in St. Ignace is the Association Secretary/Treasurer. If you want to contribute to something in particular like placing a block on the Sandusky, you can send a donation to her marked for that purpose. The Association pays no salaries or expenses so whatever is sent goes to Association activities all of which relate to either buying buoys or raising funds to pay for them (like the Treasure Hunt).
I just unloaded on this because I have an on-going dispute this year about the wisdom of continuing to buoy the Sandusky and this is all coming to a head. The Department of History Arts and Libraries and the DEQ have both asked us not to buoy it until a block is placed. They never have been very fond of divers but they have a legitimate concern here. The charter will not stop doing it so we are reduced to sneaking out there and removing the buoy. We have already done it once this year and will continue as long as she is at risk.
Call me at 616-402-0493 if you want to talk or email straitsdiver@hotmail.com. If you want to get involved, we sure would be happy to have you. Best wishes.
The association is the Straits of Mackinac Shipwreck Preserve Association, Inc, a Michigan non-profit corporation. I am its president. Jim was very committed to promoting diving in the Straits and did it forever. I am too but there is a limit. When things you provide and have never been paid for are used to risk injury to a shipwreck, that is pretty much the limit.
Jim drowned last year on Labor Day on the Newell Eddy. That leaves me. The supplies were purchased on the theory that someday the association would pay for them. That has never happened. We are in about $2500 on supplies and buoys.
On knowing what is going on, the association has tried everything it can think of. It holds an annual Treasure Hunt the second week in August (8/12 this year). We sold a field guide in 2004 and tried to get the people to become "members". About 3 people remitted dues the next year. We published a newsletter and sent it to everyone on the Rec Diver's customer list for the previous 3 years plus anyone who ever attended the Treasure Hunt (several hundred people). We specifically asked for buoy contributions. We got nothing back but postage charges. We have tried selling bumper stickers. We had to give them away. We have recently sold t-shirts but we only make about $4 on each one sold. Basically, we are still struggling to get divers to pay anything. At one time the air station raised the air rate by $2 that was supposed to go to the association. It never did.
We have a plan to place a block on the Sandusky and have for 3 years. We have the block. From NOAA, we have a plan on how to set the line on the buoy to properly hold a boat as large as the Rec Diver. What we need is a method to safely place it on the bottom. We have a location picked - the port stern that is free of debris and she tilts slightly to port at the stern. Basically, the system resembles the Tobermory model.
The problem is placing the block safely. As you know, we cannot just drop a block and hope it lands where we want it. That means using one of the 2 marine contractors in the area. Durocher in Cheboygan is one. The problem is money. These folks do not and cannot work for free. They carry significant insurance coverage and have minimum requirements to comply with work conditions and their insurance. The Rec Diver is not really suited for it because of, among other things, the configuration of the dive platform.
Frankly, as long as things run along smoothly, no one asks why it does. The charters never have been inclined to ask for more money on top of the charter fees - understandable but short-sighted. We have told divers individually while on the charter boat before that we need money. Nothing happens. Honestly, the Association is thinking that if people start to notice the buoys are not being put out and jugs are replacing them, someone will ask why and want to do something. Unfortunately, I do not believe the charters are mentioning this is happening.
Please do not think I am being too hard on you individually. I do not mean to. We are very frustrated because of the effort we put into trying to raise money and buy buoying materials. We have bought buoys from a pawan shop in Salt Lake City and had them sent by Greyhound bus, I drove to Lake Geneva, IL to pick up a truckful of used buoys two years ago, we regularly buy buoys and line off ebay and from governemnt liquidators. Perhaps it is our mistake to not have been this specific before. But we have not been shy in asking for donations.
I am sorry to say it, but divers on the whole are not real aggressive about spending money on things they do not see as a high priority. The thinking here is that if we stop "enabling" them by giving away what they need to contribute to, then they will ask questions and get involved in finding a solution.
Janet Peterson at the Chamber office in St. Ignace is the Association Secretary/Treasurer. If you want to contribute to something in particular like placing a block on the Sandusky, you can send a donation to her marked for that purpose. The Association pays no salaries or expenses so whatever is sent goes to Association activities all of which relate to either buying buoys or raising funds to pay for them (like the Treasure Hunt).
I just unloaded on this because I have an on-going dispute this year about the wisdom of continuing to buoy the Sandusky and this is all coming to a head. The Department of History Arts and Libraries and the DEQ have both asked us not to buoy it until a block is placed. They never have been very fond of divers but they have a legitimate concern here. The charter will not stop doing it so we are reduced to sneaking out there and removing the buoy. We have already done it once this year and will continue as long as she is at risk.
Call me at 616-402-0493 if you want to talk or email straitsdiver@hotmail.com. If you want to get involved, we sure would be happy to have you. Best wishes.
JEScholz
Contributor
Thanks for the information! A few of us are planning to dive the Sandusky in a couple of week on a private boat. (Large inflatable) Should we use the mooring or try and anchor?
What is are the dimensions and weight of the mooring block you have? What is the cost estimate to have a commercial boat set the block?
What is are the dimensions and weight of the mooring block you have? What is the cost estimate to have a commercial boat set the block?
motorcitydiver
Guest
WOW! This is all news to me. I haven't made it up to the Straits yet but hope to this year. I guess I never really gave much thought about who sets buoys on the wrecks. In Lake Huron I know some of the dive ops handle it but I don't know who pays for it. I can't believe that divers wouldn't be willing to donate to cover the costs. Like you said maybe the word just isn't getting out.
Has there ever been talk about setting up a system like Tobermory, ON has? Selling a yearly chit to dive the preserves and using the money to cover the costs of moorings and things of that nature?
Has there ever been talk about setting up a system like Tobermory, ON has? Selling a yearly chit to dive the preserves and using the money to cover the costs of moorings and things of that nature?
cobaltblue
Contributor
sleepdiver, how much does the mooring block weigh? I may be able to help out with some of the equipment I have. I think the wife and I will be coming up in a couple of weeks and would be happy to do my part to keep the great diving going on. Also, I'd be happy to take you out on a thank you dive and to dinner for all the great work you've done up there. PM me and we can discuss what needs to happen to get that block down.
sleepdiver
Registered
Hi MotorCity Diver.
I really appreciate your concern about this. I know what you mean about not thinking about pays for the line and gear. When I first started diving there in the 1990's, I never did either or thought the major operator there does. In the off-season, he is nice enough to let them be stored at the air station.
Just for a little history probably not known by anyone, in the 1980's when the preserve was set up, no government supplies were provided so most of it was user supplied. Around 1990, the Rec Diver was brought over from Wisconsin and converted to a dive boat. The owner and others in the community started being more aggressive about getting supplies. The Michigan Sea Grant Program operating out of MSU provided, I think, about 150 manufactured, high quality buoys. These were divided up among all the preserves and the Straits got its share. The preserves also got hardware and line. After the first Gulf War, it also got a quantity of poly line (this stuff does not hold up well, it looks like brown hemp now and is very rough handling if new eyes have to be put on. It is being phased out, in fact we may have eliminated it all, if not, there is very little left).
Moorings eat buoys and line. It is not uncommon in one season to have to replace ones that get run down, comes loose or just disappears. We have long suspected that there may be deliberate removal of new, good buoys we place. By the lat 90's there were only 2 or 3 of the original buoys left. They were all gone by 2003 or so (except one with an enormous hole that was on the St. Andrew (looked like it was run over).
Around 2002, supplies were getting pretty thin. We were splicing line to get the lengths we needed because we were out of line. (We often have pieces of line that we put on a deeper ship like the Ward or Young and if it gets chafed in one spot, we pull it, shorten the line and use it on something like the Cedarville or turn it into tag lines.) A lot of jugs were being used and a couple people bought a few foam buoys but they only last a couple years. These frequently lose their buoyancy as the foam gets crushed.
One of the guys tried making up improvised ones out of PVC pipe but they never could get balanced enough to consistently stand up straight.
As supplies faded, Jim Montcalm scraped by getting supplies where he could find. The active interest in the local preserve association faded and it even skipped its Treasure Hunt one year because it could not get enough prizes together.
A new owner took over the Rec Diver around 1995. He has been very cooperative about placing buoys but the association does not get any buoy money from him or any charter. I have to confess we have not been active enough in pursuing this angle. We intend to. He is not the only charter operating there. Although with the economy where it is and demographics shifting, the number of charters and divers seems to be declining.
Around 2002 Jim and I decided we would set about acquiring more supplies and reactivate the preserve committee. The theory was that we would buy supplies and get reimbursed later. We have been acquring things ever since. No one knows this until now, but we have acquired almost enough new cone buoys to place one on every wreck in the Straits and are storing them. We want to get enough to do the whole preserve and then deploy them at the start of a season. It will look and be very professional.
Anyway, that brings us to the Sandusky this year. With Jim dead, we want to carry on what was so important to him. Specifically placing buoys and encouraging more diving. But, at the same, we do not want to see a resource as important as the Sandusky damaged (or destroyed), especially if it is the consequence of using supplies supplied by us.
After the loss of the piece of the windlass last year, discussion turned more serious. The boat that pulled it loose (Cake and Ice Cream) had not placed the buoy line and it took it very serious and contacted the state archeologist and DEQ. This brought the problem to their attention. After some discussion, both departments asked us to lay off buoying it until something is done to resolve it like placing a block.
There were some unexpected problems that arose at the start of the season that tied up all the preserves and the MUPC (the "Great Lakes State Park') so we have not been able to get into this with the charter owners like we meant to or make progress on the block. All we did was store all the supplies except enough for about 5 buoys. It was not right or fair to stop it all.
Our hope was that that no buoy would be placed on the Sandusky given its danger, the request of the DEQ and state archeologist, and the limited supplies. We were wrong. A buoy got placed anyway. We had it removed 2 weeks later. By another week or so it was back but I do not know what the buoy is (one of the 5 left, jugs or PVC pipe).
I have not been down to check but I understand at least some buoys do not have the required chain at the attachment point. That means they will not last long.
So we are looking for any advice or help anyone can offer. If we can get a block on the Sandusky, it will make all of us feel better and get on with getting professional type buoys on the whole preserve.
I mentioned this nonsense about a "Great Lakes State Park". Most of us are convinced it is a crazy law that will not help diving or the preserves. When we went to Lansing in May we testifed that buoys were needed in all the preserves, it would cost about $40,000 to do the Straits alone (start up) and if it is a "State Park" they would have to it. At least one member suggested that we stop placing them (illegal?).
The solution was to rewrite the bills to say it is not a "state park" but something else no one has ever heard of. That way the state did not have to pay to improve it. It is clear the state is not going to do anything to help the preserves and, in fairness, they do not have the money. However, the proponents of this "park" have some questionable motives that make some of us think they are not concerned about the preserves either. They may want some type of "power grab" to take over recreational diving in the state.
You asked about the Tobermory model. Tobermory is a unique case that probably will not work here in Michigan. In Tobermory, the provincial government runs the park, collects usage fees and provides infrastructure like blocks. It is at one location.
Michigan has several preserves. To follow Tobermory, the state will have to charge and find a way to collect fees in each of them. This is one of the features we have fought about this "state park". Unless some mandatory system is set up and a method is found to police it (the DNR checking hunting and fishing licenses?), it cannot run on donations. None of us want to see the state nosing into the scuba diving business, especially if there is no guarantee the state will do anything with any money it
collects. The state would have to put blocks all around the state, train state employee divers or hire contractors, make shoreside improvements (docks and air stations in remote areas like the Upper Peninsula) and a lot of other things it has not even thought about. Plus a lot of divers may just go some place where there are no fees.
We would like to see divers solve this themselves. The MUPC plans to hold a meeting to discuss these issues later this year to address the buoying and a lot of other issues that arose in this "state park" debate. While we dislike the way this "state park" was handled by its proponents, it has had the positive effect of bringing out a lot of issues. We really think any solutions, however, need to be based on a consensus of the dive community and not the dictates of a few.
When the MUPC schedules the meeting this fall, I will post it on this discussion board. It will be open to anyone interested or who has something to offer. The goal will be to try and find out what divers think and discuss them like I just did about the Tobermory model. Maybe I am wrong and there is some way to use it but that is what we will explore, out in the open, with everyone invited to participate.
If you want to get involved this year, just contact Janet Peterson at the Chamber of Commerce in St. Ignace and she will take your contact information and pass it along.
Thanks for asking about this. Sorry the answer is so wordy but we think it is time to get all this out in the open. Almost no one knows or recalls what I am reporting here. Without some history, we cannot know how we got here.
I am personally very happy that so many of you are positively concerned about this. Please contact Janet and we will let you know how to help.
Best wishes.
I really appreciate your concern about this. I know what you mean about not thinking about pays for the line and gear. When I first started diving there in the 1990's, I never did either or thought the major operator there does. In the off-season, he is nice enough to let them be stored at the air station.
Just for a little history probably not known by anyone, in the 1980's when the preserve was set up, no government supplies were provided so most of it was user supplied. Around 1990, the Rec Diver was brought over from Wisconsin and converted to a dive boat. The owner and others in the community started being more aggressive about getting supplies. The Michigan Sea Grant Program operating out of MSU provided, I think, about 150 manufactured, high quality buoys. These were divided up among all the preserves and the Straits got its share. The preserves also got hardware and line. After the first Gulf War, it also got a quantity of poly line (this stuff does not hold up well, it looks like brown hemp now and is very rough handling if new eyes have to be put on. It is being phased out, in fact we may have eliminated it all, if not, there is very little left).
Moorings eat buoys and line. It is not uncommon in one season to have to replace ones that get run down, comes loose or just disappears. We have long suspected that there may be deliberate removal of new, good buoys we place. By the lat 90's there were only 2 or 3 of the original buoys left. They were all gone by 2003 or so (except one with an enormous hole that was on the St. Andrew (looked like it was run over).
Around 2002, supplies were getting pretty thin. We were splicing line to get the lengths we needed because we were out of line. (We often have pieces of line that we put on a deeper ship like the Ward or Young and if it gets chafed in one spot, we pull it, shorten the line and use it on something like the Cedarville or turn it into tag lines.) A lot of jugs were being used and a couple people bought a few foam buoys but they only last a couple years. These frequently lose their buoyancy as the foam gets crushed.
One of the guys tried making up improvised ones out of PVC pipe but they never could get balanced enough to consistently stand up straight.
As supplies faded, Jim Montcalm scraped by getting supplies where he could find. The active interest in the local preserve association faded and it even skipped its Treasure Hunt one year because it could not get enough prizes together.
A new owner took over the Rec Diver around 1995. He has been very cooperative about placing buoys but the association does not get any buoy money from him or any charter. I have to confess we have not been active enough in pursuing this angle. We intend to. He is not the only charter operating there. Although with the economy where it is and demographics shifting, the number of charters and divers seems to be declining.
Around 2002 Jim and I decided we would set about acquiring more supplies and reactivate the preserve committee. The theory was that we would buy supplies and get reimbursed later. We have been acquring things ever since. No one knows this until now, but we have acquired almost enough new cone buoys to place one on every wreck in the Straits and are storing them. We want to get enough to do the whole preserve and then deploy them at the start of a season. It will look and be very professional.
Anyway, that brings us to the Sandusky this year. With Jim dead, we want to carry on what was so important to him. Specifically placing buoys and encouraging more diving. But, at the same, we do not want to see a resource as important as the Sandusky damaged (or destroyed), especially if it is the consequence of using supplies supplied by us.
After the loss of the piece of the windlass last year, discussion turned more serious. The boat that pulled it loose (Cake and Ice Cream) had not placed the buoy line and it took it very serious and contacted the state archeologist and DEQ. This brought the problem to their attention. After some discussion, both departments asked us to lay off buoying it until something is done to resolve it like placing a block.
There were some unexpected problems that arose at the start of the season that tied up all the preserves and the MUPC (the "Great Lakes State Park') so we have not been able to get into this with the charter owners like we meant to or make progress on the block. All we did was store all the supplies except enough for about 5 buoys. It was not right or fair to stop it all.
Our hope was that that no buoy would be placed on the Sandusky given its danger, the request of the DEQ and state archeologist, and the limited supplies. We were wrong. A buoy got placed anyway. We had it removed 2 weeks later. By another week or so it was back but I do not know what the buoy is (one of the 5 left, jugs or PVC pipe).
I have not been down to check but I understand at least some buoys do not have the required chain at the attachment point. That means they will not last long.
So we are looking for any advice or help anyone can offer. If we can get a block on the Sandusky, it will make all of us feel better and get on with getting professional type buoys on the whole preserve.
I mentioned this nonsense about a "Great Lakes State Park". Most of us are convinced it is a crazy law that will not help diving or the preserves. When we went to Lansing in May we testifed that buoys were needed in all the preserves, it would cost about $40,000 to do the Straits alone (start up) and if it is a "State Park" they would have to it. At least one member suggested that we stop placing them (illegal?).
The solution was to rewrite the bills to say it is not a "state park" but something else no one has ever heard of. That way the state did not have to pay to improve it. It is clear the state is not going to do anything to help the preserves and, in fairness, they do not have the money. However, the proponents of this "park" have some questionable motives that make some of us think they are not concerned about the preserves either. They may want some type of "power grab" to take over recreational diving in the state.
You asked about the Tobermory model. Tobermory is a unique case that probably will not work here in Michigan. In Tobermory, the provincial government runs the park, collects usage fees and provides infrastructure like blocks. It is at one location.
Michigan has several preserves. To follow Tobermory, the state will have to charge and find a way to collect fees in each of them. This is one of the features we have fought about this "state park". Unless some mandatory system is set up and a method is found to police it (the DNR checking hunting and fishing licenses?), it cannot run on donations. None of us want to see the state nosing into the scuba diving business, especially if there is no guarantee the state will do anything with any money it
collects. The state would have to put blocks all around the state, train state employee divers or hire contractors, make shoreside improvements (docks and air stations in remote areas like the Upper Peninsula) and a lot of other things it has not even thought about. Plus a lot of divers may just go some place where there are no fees.
We would like to see divers solve this themselves. The MUPC plans to hold a meeting to discuss these issues later this year to address the buoying and a lot of other issues that arose in this "state park" debate. While we dislike the way this "state park" was handled by its proponents, it has had the positive effect of bringing out a lot of issues. We really think any solutions, however, need to be based on a consensus of the dive community and not the dictates of a few.
When the MUPC schedules the meeting this fall, I will post it on this discussion board. It will be open to anyone interested or who has something to offer. The goal will be to try and find out what divers think and discuss them like I just did about the Tobermory model. Maybe I am wrong and there is some way to use it but that is what we will explore, out in the open, with everyone invited to participate.
If you want to get involved this year, just contact Janet Peterson at the Chamber of Commerce in St. Ignace and she will take your contact information and pass it along.
Thanks for asking about this. Sorry the answer is so wordy but we think it is time to get all this out in the open. Almost no one knows or recalls what I am reporting here. Without some history, we cannot know how we got here.
I am personally very happy that so many of you are positively concerned about this. Please contact Janet and we will let you know how to help.
Best wishes.
sleepdiver
Registered
Hello Betail. Good to hear from you. I know you understand what I am talking about with this foolish "state park" legislation and we all appreciate you speaking out on it.
I suspect there will still be some type of buoy on the Sandusky in 2 weeks whether our association wants it or not. Your inflatable poses almost zero risk to anything. It just does not draw enough (any?) water. The great risk, as I have observed, comes from a really big boat carrying a volume of divers. It has the displaced "lift" to put some real strain on something. Plus from what kidsdream reports, it will hold a small boat or inflatable. Even if the line gets entangled on something, is unlikely to lift or pull something unless it is already coming loose. That is what happened to Cake and Ice Cream last year.
One of the great issues raised by your question is whether it is better to leave even an undesired buoy on a wreck to stop grappling. On some reflection we felt it unlikely the typical small boat will spend time trying to grapple (if it even has a hook and line) and just go somewhere else where there is a buoy. A big boat cannot spend a lot of time with divers on board because it has a schedule to try and keep.
Because of what I have been doing, I have not spent much time in the Straits this year. In case you want to know, I have been told that there is some type of line on the Sandusky, Ward (big red/white ball - bow I think), Maitland, Minneapolis (jug), Stalker (red boat bumper), Young (probably bow), Cedarville has 2 (bow/stern? and Barnum had one top of the engine/boiler area. The St. Andrew may have a something on it, maybe a jug (a guy on shore marks it).
But for the issues I describe in this thread, there would be 2 on the Young, 2 on the Ward, 3 on the Cedarville and so forth using good buoys and line (I think some do not have chain at the attachment point).
Contact the Chamber if you want to help out in any way on these issues.
Thanks again for standing with so many of us on this "state park" issue.
I suspect there will still be some type of buoy on the Sandusky in 2 weeks whether our association wants it or not. Your inflatable poses almost zero risk to anything. It just does not draw enough (any?) water. The great risk, as I have observed, comes from a really big boat carrying a volume of divers. It has the displaced "lift" to put some real strain on something. Plus from what kidsdream reports, it will hold a small boat or inflatable. Even if the line gets entangled on something, is unlikely to lift or pull something unless it is already coming loose. That is what happened to Cake and Ice Cream last year.
One of the great issues raised by your question is whether it is better to leave even an undesired buoy on a wreck to stop grappling. On some reflection we felt it unlikely the typical small boat will spend time trying to grapple (if it even has a hook and line) and just go somewhere else where there is a buoy. A big boat cannot spend a lot of time with divers on board because it has a schedule to try and keep.
Because of what I have been doing, I have not spent much time in the Straits this year. In case you want to know, I have been told that there is some type of line on the Sandusky, Ward (big red/white ball - bow I think), Maitland, Minneapolis (jug), Stalker (red boat bumper), Young (probably bow), Cedarville has 2 (bow/stern? and Barnum had one top of the engine/boiler area. The St. Andrew may have a something on it, maybe a jug (a guy on shore marks it).
But for the issues I describe in this thread, there would be 2 on the Young, 2 on the Ward, 3 on the Cedarville and so forth using good buoys and line (I think some do not have chain at the attachment point).
Contact the Chamber if you want to help out in any way on these issues.
Thanks again for standing with so many of us on this "state park" issue.
OP
kidsdream
Contributor
First off thanks for all your hard work and financial support (even if few knew about this previously). I will be making some level of "donation" this week.
That said a couple of things are quite obvious.
1. Few knew obout your group's perspective and efforts.
2. I question the benefits of waiting to properly mark all the wrecks at the same time. Why would it not be beneficial to use your material to take care of the wrecks where the tie-in is not an issue?
It does sound a bit puntative to me based on your concern with the Sandusky.
This would certainly highlight the benefits of a properly marked wreck. To be honest the PVC Pipe Bouys look to function reasonable well.
3. Not providing any mooring on the Sandusky would appear to put the wreck more as risk (not even considering the risks to the divers) due to improper tie ins and the risk of grappling. I know this is not a perfect answer, but unless it is actually against the law to dive the wreck I don't think you have case.
I am also concerned about your comments about removing moorings placed by other entities. Again unless a law is being violated I am not sure of the basis of your actions. I do want the preserve the wreck, but just keeping some folks away does not help the cause IMHO.
4. If you clearly stated the cost and required actions to get the proper mooring in place, you would get more support. Most people like to understand what is the basis of their donations. You might even find out somebody with the "right stuff" can make this happen. Look at the ground roots efforts that have collects over a million dollars (including like kind support) for the South Channel lights on Lake St. Clair.
I brought together 5 divers from as far away as Florida for the trip this past weekend and next year this WreckFest Trip will surely grow. I could have collected some coin if (1) I knew about the issue and (2) Understood the cost and process to complete the project to properly create a long term mooring on the Sandusky. Don't under-estimate the power of a properly motivated and informed internet group.
That said a couple of things are quite obvious.
1. Few knew obout your group's perspective and efforts.
2. I question the benefits of waiting to properly mark all the wrecks at the same time. Why would it not be beneficial to use your material to take care of the wrecks where the tie-in is not an issue?
It does sound a bit puntative to me based on your concern with the Sandusky.
This would certainly highlight the benefits of a properly marked wreck. To be honest the PVC Pipe Bouys look to function reasonable well.
3. Not providing any mooring on the Sandusky would appear to put the wreck more as risk (not even considering the risks to the divers) due to improper tie ins and the risk of grappling. I know this is not a perfect answer, but unless it is actually against the law to dive the wreck I don't think you have case.
I am also concerned about your comments about removing moorings placed by other entities. Again unless a law is being violated I am not sure of the basis of your actions. I do want the preserve the wreck, but just keeping some folks away does not help the cause IMHO.
4. If you clearly stated the cost and required actions to get the proper mooring in place, you would get more support. Most people like to understand what is the basis of their donations. You might even find out somebody with the "right stuff" can make this happen. Look at the ground roots efforts that have collects over a million dollars (including like kind support) for the South Channel lights on Lake St. Clair.
I brought together 5 divers from as far away as Florida for the trip this past weekend and next year this WreckFest Trip will surely grow. I could have collected some coin if (1) I knew about the issue and (2) Understood the cost and process to complete the project to properly create a long term mooring on the Sandusky. Don't under-estimate the power of a properly motivated and informed internet group.
This is exactally the type of thing that I had hoped our GLWC gear would be able to raise money for. Maybe we need to revisit this issue to see if there is anything that we can do. When Brian and I discussed this I thought that we should add an additional cost per item to raise money for donation. This sounds like the type of thing that would fit this profile.
I will talk to Brian about getting this thing going again. Maybe we could get the local dive shops and dive operators to carry the gear. I think that we have a very nice t-shirt.
I will talk to Brian about getting this thing going again. Maybe we could get the local dive shops and dive operators to carry the gear. I think that we have a very nice t-shirt.
I am sure that we could work something out with our GLWC merchandise. If the local shops were to carry it and donate the profits to the "wreck mooring" fund? If that would help, please let me know.
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