GUE and Sidemount position ?

[Darghu]

Given that Z-system is unilaterally avoided by the entire sidemount community (other than UTD, where it's mandatory).... and considering that it gets blasted by all (except UTD members) in every forum and group debate where its raised for discussion...

I also found the Razor system
Go Side Mount Shop. The Razor Side Mount System
who have also their own courses
Overview Courses

What is your opinion about that one, please ?

 

[DevonDiver]

I also found the Razor system
Go Side Mount Shop. The Razor Side Mount System
who have also their own courses
Overview Courses

What is your opinion about that one, please ?

If you use, or want to use, a Razor system... those instructors get their syllabus and methods straight from the team who designed and dive the rig.

That's a pretty safe bet for a good course.

However, it's worth bearing in mind that you'll only be learning 'their way' of diving it... no modifications from the specific 'system' that they created.

So...

1. It's only applicable to the Razor
2. It's a holistic system

You'll be taught to dive the Razor very well, but it'll be exactly as they define it... no changes, no modifications, no external concepts or ideas.

 

[Darghu]

Alright -
Which system do you use to teach your courses (Sidemount-Technical-Wreck Courses and Clinics) ?

http://www.xdeep.eu/sidemount-bc-wing-stealth-tec-pr-106.html
Sidemount Gear – Dive Ultimate

I don't know but after 13 pages (this is fine I enjoy reading and thinking about each of your comments guys - please go ahead to add more) this is kinda hard to understand which system / way we are supposed to correctly dive in Sidemount configuration. There are specific products linked to specific own-courses-agency. And of course evertime - Pick up a good instructor for it.

 

[J-Vo]

part of the issue there is how you route the regulators. In order to do that effectively you have to eliminate the hose crossing. To do that with "normal" regulators, your left side long hose would go around your neck per normal, and the right long hose would have to come straight up to the mouth. This doesn't work comfortably on the right side without some sort of angle adapter.
The issue here on the right side hose and in a true sidemount restriction you have the risk of that reg getting pulled out of your mouth.
On the left side, when you go to donate that regulator to an OOA diver and have to make a single file exit, you have a hose crossing to the other side of the diver. Without an angle adapter that causes excessive strain on the OOA divers mouth and artificial shortening of that long hose which may not allow enough length to safely exit the cave. Even with an angle adapter, it is still crossing under the diver and that can be extremely problematic.

You can mitigate the crossing issue by having a reversible regulator on the left, but then you have both regulators coming straight up. As mentioned, that can be a problem in a true restriction, but it also means that if a reg gets ripped out of your mouth or spat out of your mouth, you HAVE to clip it off. No short term or long term "hanging" of one of the second stages. Some divers mitigate this by putting a suicide strap on each regulator or one with two openings on a single strap *Forrest Wilson being one of them*, but he's an insane sump diver which puts him on a special level of crazy.

the vast majority of us that actually dive in sidemount cave *which I'm not actually aware of anyone diving UTD Z-system in true sidemount passages....* have accepted that in a cave environment in particular, we are 99.999% likely to have some sort of warning prior to being mugged for a regulator where we can grab the long hose and get it in the mouth of the other diver fast enough for it to not be a concern.

Can you not simply tuck the excess hose in and route them the same as a short hose?

 

[tbone1004]

Can you not simply tuck the excess hose in and route them the same as a short hose?

both hoses would be tucked. I personally use Poseidon regulators and my long hose is routed in a mirror image to my short hose. Since it is non-directional, when I donate that regulator, it gets rotated on the horizontal axis instead of the vertical axis so it goes from a left side feed when I am breathing it, to a right side feed when my buddy breathes it. Makes for real easy buddy breathing as well.
The long hose and short hose cross behind my neck which prevents me from donating my short hose due to the cross. It is possible to keep them separate, but when you clip the right side off you have to make damned sure that you don't have it over the short hose *i.e. make sure the short hose is on the inside of your d-ring vs the outside where it naturally will tend to go*.
This would still only work with side exhaust regulators without directional mouthpieces *i.e. not compatible with the backmount set of Jetstreams that I have that use Apeks comfobites*. If you did this with a lefty regulator, you still have a hose crossing under the diver in front and that is much less than ideal for reasons mentioned above

 

[Dan_P]

... and there's a lot we do know... which is why we study and test.

Yes, there's lots of aspects to decompression that we are still ignorant about. It's a slowly developing field.

Ignorance, pending study, is natural and forgivable.

Willful ignorance, dismissing study, is neither natural nor acceptable behaviour.

The report is very clear on limitations to the experiment, and aptly states that the findings cannot be extrapolated.
Saying that's not the case is, by your remark above, unacceptable. Your argument that it proved RD more dangerous, is simply false.

Given that Z-system is unilaterally avoided by the entire sidemount community (other than UTD, where it's mandatory).... and considering that it gets blasted by all (except UTD members) in every forum and group debate where its raised for discussion...

I'd propose it's quite incorrect to dismiss each and every perspective as 'personal'.... it's about as strong a community consensus as you're likely to get.

I think there's a good point in saying there's nowhere near a community consensus.
If there were a golden solution in play and community consensus were a reasonable guideline, then surely the two would align. It's not the case by your recognition, so either there is no "right" and "wrong" way, or community consensus is no apt argument.

If a solution is getting blasted, it is a matter of personal opinion if it's done by propagating falsehoods, reference above.

Meanwhile, I am not presenting claims that any way is right or wrong, or more/less dangerous. I'm saying there are pro's and con's and that a discussion on those would offer a more fruitful conversation.

 

[tbone1004]

@Dan_P what are the cons of the z-system? and what are the pros of UTD's ratio deco?

 

[Dan_P]

@Dan_P what are the cons of the z-system? and what are the pros of UTD's ratio deco?

These are my personal views on the cons of the Z-system and pro's of RD. It'll need to stand on my own accord entirely.
I personally see 2 primary potential downsides:

1) Single-system for single-system, the Z-system is a more expensive sidemount system. Granted, it can be used for other things while scalable, so it could potentially end up cheaper for some divers across the career, but system for system, there are cheaper sidemount solutions out there.

2) The recognition across hogarthian doubles and the Z-system is straightforward in my opinion, less so for indie singles to Z.
In addition to training, it would therefore take more of a paradigm change on the part of the indie diver, which is why I think we see quite a lot of indie divers opposing it so fiercely on forums.

I also see significant benefits, needless to say.

On Ratio Deco:

It's a progressive system so there's recognition in training from day 1.
It's consistent across open and closed systems.
It's easy to use and adjust.
It allows proactive adjustment in-water.
It removes the need for one or two computers, using instead one bottom timer.

 

[Darghu]

I also see significant benefits, needless to say..

Please I would like to hear about your point of view.

 

[PfcAJ]

Please I would like to hear about your point of view.

Significant benefits: your wallet is too full and you need to get rid of some money.