Have training standards "slipped"?

[ScubaRandy]

So I've been following this thread for quite some time, and there are a lot of things I agree with and a lot that I don't agree with.

With the increased popularity and commercialization of technical diving and cave diving, we are seeing the toll it takes on the caves too. We see hand and face prints (no kidding I've seen actual face inprints) in what used to be pristine untouched silt where there is absolutely NO reason for anyone to have had to get in the bottom. You can go into Peacock and see whole tunnels silted out near a jump. Broken formations where divers used "pull and glide" are evident even in caves where there is no reason to be touching anything. We see paint on the ceiling from tanks banging. We even see more intentional damage like graffiti than we used to.

And have the standards been relaxed in the cave diving community or the technical community? Surely the instructor that certified these cave divers evaulated these students buoyancy control abilities before signing them off....

I know during my IDC, my CD was always hammering on us about buoyancy control... I thank her for it, and it is something that I pass along to my students.... In the confined water, we treat the pool like a reef.... In the open water, well, it's a quarry with LOTS of silt.... We REALLY staff off the bottom...

And speaking of that, it's time to go to the pool now... And yes, I am wearing the Nomex wetsuit....

Randy

 

[TSandM]

You know, I disagree that Mike's not accomplishing anything.

In the "real world" as it is, people are taking open water classes like mine, and finishing them, and being certified divers, with skills like mine were -- and they were awful. And, like me, they don't know that they don't HAVE to be awful. I knew my diving ability sucked, but I thought it was just because I was new, and things would get better if I just kept at it. In fact, not much got better from just doing things over and over again. Things got better when I got better instruction. And how did I find it?

Through ScubaBoard.

Although we may get very tired of these repeated long threads about training standards, I think they have significant value. Look at the 70,000 members of this board -- Most of them don't post. Most of them join because they're going to take a class, or have just taken a class. ScubaBoard may be the first place where they read something that makes them think about whether they should be better at what they're doing. Look at the threads from new divers saying, "What skills should I practice?" We're making people think.

 

[Mako Mark]

face prints (no kidding I've seen actual face inprints) in what used to be pristine untouched silt

Honestly Mike, if I knew where a faceprint was in "pristine silt" I think I would take my students there just to laugh at it.



I think you will find that it is not unusual to faceplant during the lost line drill I know I did it, and although I know how horrible it is to see non pristine silt, I know that there are only three or four places in Mexico among many hundreds of miles of passages where you can perform this drill according the the NSSCDS/NACD and I am sure it is the same in Florida.

Your "save the silt" sentiments, no matter how honerable and admirable, I think are slightly missdirected. I think we should focus on corals and speliothems as they dont grow back after a decent discharge event.

 

[MikeFerrara]

No matter how admirable your intentions were mike, It didnt work. The road to heaven is paved with good intentions Mike, but you did not find a solution to the problem that you sought to solve.

I really hope you understand that I 100% agree with pretty much every thing you say "in theory". But unfortunately we dont live in an ideal world and we have to fit our ideals into that world.

I don't know that I'm so concerned with an "ideal world" so much as just addressing my little piece of it. I don't think there is a problem for those who know what they are buying and choose it. It's only a problem for those who may be lead to believe that they are buying something other than what they really are.

I propose solutions all the time from pointing out what I see as deficiancies in standards, to suggesting things that instructors might consider trying to trying to offer some insight to the consumers in the equation.

No, that is just complaining.

You dont teach diving anymore, you dont teach instructors, you never designed a better resort course, and you dont do anything about standards except complain about them on the internet.[/QUOTE]

I am no longer an instructor member of any agency so I can issue an agencies certification but that isn't the same as not teaching.

Even as an instructor member of two different agencies I was never able to do anything about the standards. I didn't design a "resort course" but you don't know that I didn't design any courses or course changes. All we know is that those agencies I taught through apparently aren't interested in using my design. I don't say anything here that I didn't attempt to convey to those agencies.

You, me, Pete and (heaven forbid) Thalassamania are on the same side.

I think you're probably right.

So how come we just sit here ranting about semantics.

Because of the nature of the medium.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike,

Much of that post such as "All skills must be accomplished mid water or you will surely die." was satyrical in nature. In using that device I am trying to diplay the truth: that sometimes you obsess over that.

ok

I am sure that there are MANY injuries caused by lack of buoyancy control and much of them have to do with colliding with fire coral and the like. Those people learn how to do that QUICKLY. A lack of BUOYANCY probably accounts for the majority of deaths and injuries on the surface as well. I doubt you can produce a significant number of accidents that occured because someone could not remove and replace their weight belt mid water. Or their mask. Or their BC. Or find their regs.

Probably the best source here is the DAN report but we can certainly find plenty of examples of injuries or fatalities where inability to control position while performing another task was an apparent factor. The first that comes to mind are some of the incidents we see at places like Gilboa which are pretty well documented. In any case, the idea that a lack of control is potentially dangerous seems like kind of a no-brainer.

I don't know what a significant number is but, again, I don't know that the focus really needs to be injuries or fatalities. When you get right down to it, diving is a lot more fun when you have control over your position and movement in the water column. That seems justification enough.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, I don't teach PADI, but you keep referring to AGENCIES. I have shown how NAUI standards affect my classes. I have demonstrated how my ITC has affected my classes. It's clear from my experience that your bashing of all agencies is falacious at best and more counterproductive than anything else.

FWIW, NAUI won't belong to the RSTC because they don't like their low standards. So? If you want to change things, by all means do. But please stop painting all classes as a vehicle for death and destruction. I rightfully take umbrage at such a broad brush being used for the entire industry.

Interesting points. When I refer to PADI standards I try to state that. At the same time, I sometimes use the prase "the agencies" because there are other agencies with similar requirements or the lack of them.

It is certainly incorrect to catagorize "all classes" or "all agencies". I am not familiar with the standards of "all agencies" and there is no doubt that there are instructors who teach a good class regardless of anything the agency does or doesn't do.

I think NAUI is correct about the RSTC standards. I don't see much in the way of redeeming qualities in the RSTC standards or in the RSTC.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Honestly Mike, if I knew where a faceprint was in "pristine silt" I think I would take my students there just to laugh at it.



I think you will find that it is not unusual to faceplant during the lost line drill I know I did it, and although I know how horrible it is to see non pristine silt, I know that there are only three or four places in Mexico among many hundreds of miles of passages where you can perform this drill according the the NSSCDS/NACD and I am sure it is the same in Florida.

Your "save the silt" sentiments, no matter how honerable and admirable, I think are slightly missdirected. I think we should focus on corals and speliothems as they dont grow back after a decent discharge event.

I reference the marks in silt because the silt records such events so well. these aren't typically locations where any instructor that I know would conduct a lost line drill or even a cut line drill.

While we don't typically have speliothems in the Forida or Missouri caves, I did mention broken and scared formations and like speliothems, they don't grow back and the damage is permenant.

 

[HenrikBP]

You know, I disagree that Mike's not accomplishing anything.
<snip> Look at the threads from new divers saying, "What skills should I practice?" We're making people think.

As a complete newbie; I agree with TSandM. After spending time on ScubaBoard prior to my OW Class, as well as reading all the excellent threads with advice, I am 1) no doubt a better diver than I would have been. 2) I was much better prepared for my OW referral dives, than I would have been with only my classroom and pool training 3) much more aware of what I still don't know and what skills I need to spend (much) more time practicing.

Henrik

 

[Mako Mark]

diver damage is evident in the Mexican caves too, however lamentable any damage is, the amount of passage dived regularly is a fraction of a percent of the passage length explored and the amount of passage explored is a fraction of a percent of thepassage there.

I am a big believer of opening some areas for recreation and locking some up for conservation. Works with reefs and forests too.

 

[Thalassamania]

... I don't teach PADI, but you keep referring to AGENCIES. I have shown how NAUI standards affect my classes. I have demonstrated how my ITC has affected my classes. It's clear from my experience that your bashing of all agencies is falacious at best and more counterproductive than anything else.

FWIW, NAUI won't belong to the RSTC because they don't like their low standards. So? If you want to change things, by all means do. But please stop painting all classes as a vehicle for death and destruction. I rightfully take umbrage at such a broad brush being used for the entire industry.

Pete, a few thoughts:

1. Saying "agencies," is "PC." Doing so prevents getting into the one agency vs. another agency thing (which I thought was commonly referred to as "bashing") but since you seem to want to go there:

2. Yes, NAUI did not join the current round of RSTC foolishness and that is to their credit. Yes, NAUI has minimum standards but does not rigidly control what is taught and the order in which it is taught and so (at least in my opinion) the student is much better served. On a strictly statistical basis I think that it would be hard to tell the difference between the means of NAUI and PADI programs because the within group variance of NAUI programs is so large and the within group variance of PADI programs is so small and the PADI variance is almost completely contained within the varience of NAUI programs. The worst programs offered under the auspices of both agencies are depressingly similar, but the best programs that are offered under the auspices of each agency have little or no similarity.

3. From where I stand the "minimum standard" programs of NAUI and PADI are both inadequate and not different enough to warrant further comment or soul-searching consideration. The freedom that NAUI Instructors have to select their training materials from all the best that are out there and to design their course from the ground up to meet the exact needs of their students usually gives them a leg up in the divers that they train.

4. This does not guarantee that one program is any better than other, but it does mean that odds are that that is the case.