Help a newbie: BCD + Reg for warm/cold waters

[astralmind]

Thank you so much Elan, that is a load of extremely valuable information !

I was eying the atomic because I constantly read outstanding reviews about it but that certainly made me think. We do have at least 2 stores that sells Atomics locally though so.... would you still put them down the list knowing that ? Ironically, I can't find the Apeks brand listed on those 2 LDS website so that does sound like a turn off.

The special at north east scuba supply is very interesting though. Since the XTX100 is reduced to the same price as the XTX50 can I assume it is a better buy ? The XTX100 is available in yoke config while the 50 isn't and from what I understand most dive centers offer yoke mounted options way more frequently (at least in the southern hemisphere).

If you had to pick a winner between the SP and the Apeks which one would it be ?

As for the BP/W I must honestly say that I am a bit worried about the "complexity" of putting it together. It's been strongly recommend already by a few people and I had a look at DSS. Knowing I'm a big guy (6'3, 240) I assume it would also get rather costly quick. I'm still very new at this so having heard nothing about BP/W before this thread also makes it a more difficult choice to go with (not a very strong argument, I know).

As far as the cold aspect, I haven't dove Cold once so far but would think I'd still enjoy it as a "better than no diving" option. We cannot afford a trip every month to warm waters and as I mentioned I want to dive, improve my skills and try different situations so... might as well get ready for that

As you live in Montreal Atomics will be at the end of my list. You have to remember that Atomics are pistons and sealing them involves packing the chamber with christolube. Yes the one you have mentioned is sealed but it's very expensive here to seal them. It will cost you about $40-$50 on top of other expenses just to seal the reg when you service it. We dive in similar conditions here and the workhorse regs that will work for both cold and warm waters for us are diaphragm ScubaPro MK17 /G250V and Apeks XTX50 with DST or DS4 first stage. I know quite a few people here who were excited with the Atomics in the beginning as they were pushed by their LDS but later switched to Apeks due to service costs. You can dive an unsealed piston in cold water and I do it regularly but they are more finicky in those conditions and if I had to choose either or I would take a diaphragm reg for cold water without thinking twice.

SP MK17 or Apeks would be on the top of my list together with Aqualung Titan LX or Aqualung Legend. Poseidons are great in cold water too but they are more difficult to find a good service tech here. The SP and Apeks have a very good resale value as well. Even when they are 10-15 years old they still go for good money.

You can still possibly catch a deal with beaverdivers clearing the last year stock on MK17/G250V for 399 or on Apeks north east scuba supply. If you can get one of those deals it's a nobrainer and I would not think twice going for it.

I have a good contact for servicing those regs in Ottawa, shoot me a PM if you need.

I would get one of the BP/W types of BCDs from Tobin @ DSS - he responded above I think.








---------- Post added February 20th, 2013 at 07:46 AM ----------

The only place where you would get that temp is The river upstream from Montreal mid - late summer. Even if you want to go and dive Les Escoumins the water there is pretty cold.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I know a lot of pretty big guys diving BP/W. You are looking for the two of you are you not? If you leave the "complexity" as you see it and the "simplicity" as some others see it, out of your selection criteria, send start with a bcd that both your wife and you like . . .well, should you change to a BPW some time down the road, don't beat yourself up. Many divers change up their gear from time to time. I tried the BPW at the same time I ended up selecting the Ladyhawk. For me, at that time, there were good and valid reasons to choose the LH over the BPW. May be the same for the two of you.

 

[cool_hardware52]

As for the BP/W I must honestly say that I am a bit worried about the "complexity" of putting it together.

Assembling a BP&W might seem complex if you have never done it, but it's actually quite simple. We ship BP&W's worldwide, often to folks who have never used one. The vast majority report no problems.

Selecting the right components from the many possible permutations can be a bit more involved. If you do choose a BP&W get some advice on plate size and material, Wing capacity and harness type. The classic mistake I see is the buyer bent on adding unneeded accessories to a nice clean BP&W in an effort to make more like a jacket BC.

It's been strongly recommend already by a few people and I had a look at DSS. Knowing I'm a big guy (6'3, 240) I assume it would also get rather costly quick.

Being a couple deviations from the mean size wise makes a BP&W even more worth a look. One of the huge benefits of a BP&W is the ease and range of adjustment. Our larger plates are a few $$ more (takes more Stainless Steel to make them) but other than that a "Big Guy" BP&W is no more costly than one for a smaller person.

As far as the cold aspect, I haven't dove Cold once so far but would think I'd still enjoy it as a "better than no diving" option. We cannot afford a trip every month to warm waters and as I mentioned I want to dive, improve my skills and try different situations so... might as well get ready for that

Good for you, too many pass up wonderful diving do to fear of cold water. Cold water is yet another reason to consider a BP&W. Cold water means more ballast and the ~ 6 to ~14 lbs of ballast that a Stainless Steel plate (+ weight plates) puts up over your buoyant lungs can be very helpful trim wise vs having all your ballast in a weight belt.

Tobin

 

[Johanan]

Backplate and wing is much easier to rinse, dry and pack for traveling then a jacket. DSS is great among bp&ws for its design, quality, price and customer support. An interesting compromise between bp&w and jacket is the back inflated Zeagle Express Tech. However, if you are a maverick, have a look at the sidemount systems, too.

As for the regulators Apeks is a safe play. Can't go wrong with it. I found an article by John_B very informative:


I have the XTX100 (a few, actually) and love them. I started out moving them back and forth between yoke and DIN single tanks with and without the yoke adapter but eventually went with one of each because the adapter moved the first stage too close to the back of my head. Once I started playing around with doubles I went with two DIN first stages, plus a yoke first stage for single tanks and travel. You can move hoses around and even convert back and forth between DIN and yoke connectors, but I decided it was simpler to have a set of travel regs and a set for doubles. Call me lazy...


There isn't much difference in second stages between the 200, 100, and 50. There is also the 40 which is similar except that it isn't adjustable. They all come with both the wide and narrow exhaust tees; I use wide for the primary and narrow for the bungeed backup.


The first stage of the 40 and 50 is the DST which has the the LP ports on a rotating turret. I had a TX50 with a DST but found the turret would let the hoses rotate at exactly the wrong moment, usually gearing up. I was happy to be rid of it. Maybe I'll change my mind later if I need stages or a deco bottle, but that's not an issue for me right now.


The first stage on the 100 is the FST, it has a very low profile on a single tank with the diaphragm down, and great hose routing. Its also great for doubles with the diaphragms turned in. My favorite, I'd buy these again.


The first stage on the 200 is the FSR, in addition to the chrome also has good hose routing for singles with the diaphragm up, but isn't as low profile as the 100. It has a removable valve seat that the FST doesn't have.


There is another good first stage, the DS4. If you google "DS4 hose routing" you'll see some people don't care for doubles routing with certain tanks and manifolds. But the price is definitely right. I've seen more of these than any of the other Apeks first stages combined.


In spite of how much I like my XTX100s, IMO the Status models are scuba gimmickry at its worst. For less than $25 you can buy an intermediate pressure gauge to connect to your inflator hose that will give you more useful information that the Status LEDs ever will. IF you check around you may find the Status models will sometimes go cheaper than the non-Status models because nobody buys them.


As far as where to get them, they show up used occasionally here and on TDS. LP sells them only as a set with one second stage and one (yoke) first stage, and the DIN conversion will cost you an extra Grant. Aqualung seems to have a new policy with the Apeks stuff; they don't want to sell you just an extra second stage (vs. and octo) or just an extra first stage. FWIW, DI sells sets and components.


If you get the older ATX models, be aware that most of them come with first stages that had that one goofy 1/2" LP port that you'll either need to plug, get a converter for, or buy hoses that have one connector with a non-standard sized fitting. The DS4 never had the 1/2" LP port, so that's not something to worry about. In fact, you could probably save quite a bit of money getting something like ATX50 second stages with a DS4 first from someplace like DI.


Best of luck.

 

[astralmind]

Once again, many thanks for the very detailed advice, to all. Great community here, awesome!

Apek XTX100 at the sale price suggested from NESS seems like a killer option and the Zeagle Express Tech does look like an inexpensive compromise! I do see comments regarding the bladder size though, seems standard is 24 which I assume might not be enough in cold water, correct? The Zeagle Wicked lite also seemed like an interesting option.

 

[chillyinCanada]

BP/W for traveling vs cold water diving, requires OP to get two different backplates.

 

[cool_hardware52]

BP/W for traveling vs cold water diving, requires OP to get two different backplates.

Humm, not usually, particularly if they checked with me first

Sometimes warm water divers will op for a smaller wing, but if one is careful about selecting their cold water wing, these to can be used with success in warm water.

The benefits of a stainless plate for cold water should not require explanation. Often warm water travel diving involves 3mm wetsuits and buoyant al80 rental tanks. a typical 3mm suit is ~3-5 lbs buoyant and an empty al 80 is about 4 lbs positive. That means a typical diver who is close to neutral in their birthday suit will need about 7-9 lbs of total ballast with a 3mm suit and al 80.

The typical SS plate and harness is about 6 lbs negative and a regulator is about 2 lbs negative. Bingo! 6 + 2 = 8. Many divers use only their Stainless Steel plate, harness and reg as ballast for warm water travel diving.

Having the ballast that a SS plate provides up over the divers buoyant lungs is quite helpful when also using buoyant tanks, if achieving horizontal trim is a goal.

BTW, a lightweight plate, aluminum or kydex only saves about 3 lbs of dry travel weight vs a Stainless plate.

Even with a Stainless Plate often a BP&W is lighter than many "full featured" jacket BC's



Tobin

 

[chillyinCanada]

OK, fair enough I guess . . .I just spend so much of my time trying to make sure my luggage is a hair under 50#. But then as a princess, I'm likely to be needing so much more than just my dive gear, a couple t-shirts, ball cap and a pair of flip flops. ;^)

 

[elan]

Yes I would still put Atomic down the list. If you were buying your 4th or 5th regulator I could say - yeah try it But as this is going to be the only one for a while I would just get what would work for 100% of the cases. Atomic is an outstanding reg but IMHO it is not the optimal reg for our conditions. I'm sure you can dive it even non sealed but you must be very very careful, especially on the surfice with around freezing temps.

Speaking of make we have more than a dozen regs between me and my wife. My wife dives Apekses , I dive mostly SP (both piston and diaphragms). SP and Apeks are both solid makes and it's a matter of taste IMHO. Some people like Scubapro some like Apeks. I like SP more, my dive buddy is a hardcore Apeks.

If you plan to do recreational diving mostly I would sure go with a yoke reg - way less hassles to rent the tanks. It's only in France where we had more luck with DIN.

As for XTX100/FST vs XTX50/DST , DST has a nice feature - you can add the 5th port which can make nice routing if you dive long hose. I think NESS even had those ports in stock. I use to own an ATX50/FST and dove it on single tank - the routing worked well for regular length hoses (short hose with an octo) but was not so well for a long hose as the hoses are directed upward. So I sold them and replaced with SP MK17.


Could it be the French-English thing that you cannot find Apeks nearby Are there any stores in Westmount area I know one guy from MTL who dives Apeks exclusively, but I do not know where he was buying them.

Do not tick Aqualung off the list. Aqualungs are also rock solid diaphragm regs and are workhorses. AL now owns Apeks.

Thank you so much Elan, that is a load of extremely valuable information !

I was eying the atomic because I constantly read outstanding reviews about it but that certainly made me think. We do have at least 2 stores that sells Atomics locally though so.... would you still put them down the list knowing that ? Ironically, I can't find the Apeks brand listed on those 2 LDS website so that does sound like a turn off.

The special at north east scuba supply is very interesting though. Since the XTX100 is reduced to the same price as the XTX50 can I assume it is a better buy ? The XTX100 is available in yoke config while the 50 isn't and from what I understand most dive centers offer yoke mounted options way more frequently (at least in the southern hemisphere).

If you had to pick a winner between the SP and the Apeks which one would it be ?

 

[Capt.Gene]

I can recomend the Atomic but I question the need to have the sealed version for your diving. Your stated dive temps will not freeze it up, and while the cristolube can reused it is messy.
Take the money you saved and put it towards the Zeagle Stiletto, which I believe is the most durable, best fitting and best diving product you can buy.
If your budget dictates the need buy a less expensive reg, such as a Sherwood Magnum or Zeagle Envoy, to free up the funds for the Stiletto.
You will notice a bigger value in the difference in the BC's than you will in the regulators, IMHO.