Help with Regulator Age and ID

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If it looks similar to the MR-12 above (3rd photo), it is most likely a MK-2, the longest running SP reg and still being made. It's a simple flow by piston, nothing fancy but a good solid reg. Parts kits are easy to come by and it is one of the easiest regs to service. Not in the class of the MK-5/109 but still a servicable reg.
 
If it looks like this:

attachment.php


Then it is a mark 1.

I believe it uses a MK5 kit. The HP port is more than likely 3/8 so you will need either a vintage gauge, an adaptor, or a specialty hose. Also if you have a thin yoke, like in the photo, it should be upgraded.
 
Thanks Herman and ams511 for the info and posting the pic of the MK-1. My set-up is a MK-1/108 which are identical to the photos. I've never had any problems or maintenance issues with what I have, but I'm thinking I'd like to at least upgrade to using an attached pressure gauge. My LDS has the adapters and maybe they can find me a good used gauge as well. I thought this might be a nice added safety feature.

With all that I've heard about the MK-5/109 combination perhaps I'll look into scooping one up on the internet or where ever you guys might recommend. Do you think that upgrading to the more modern MK-5/109 would make a noticeable difference as far as breathing is concerned?
 
109 yes, MK-5, no.
Contrary to what some will tell you, the first stage has little to do with the overall performance of a reg. As long as the first stage keeps IP reasonably constant and can provide enough flow, the second stage will do it's job. Most any first made since the mid 60s will do that. How much better the 109 feels to you depends a lot on how good your tech is but IMO the upgrade as a primary reg is worth the cost. The biggest reason I see you may want to upgrade to a MK-5 is the higher pressure yoke and multiple LP ports. Your 108 would make a prefect octo for that combo.
 
CaptainK,

I can dig around in the closet for a few parts if you're interested. I may have a MK 5 cap, a 3/8" hose and SPG. I might even have a yoke. BTW if you already have a standard 7/16 hose you'll only need an adapter.

Edit: I have the cap and yoke; however I just realized you need a turret too or you're back to square one. :( I do have a complete MK 5 with a heavy yoke. It has a 5 port turret, but only one 3/8'' hp port. It has recently been rebuilt. I can throw in a gauge and hose.

$55 + shipping.
 
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Hi COUV,

Sounds like a deal. I'm new to the sight and navigating around in here so just let me know what I need to do and/or how to give you the info you need. If that set up will allow me to hook up my 108 for now with the gauge and hose that would be great.

Thanks
 
Hi CaptainK,

Before we get carried away, I want to send you pictures so you'll know what you're getting. Left click on my name, select Private Message, then send me an email address where you can receive pictures.

Cheers,

Couv
 
Thanks Herman and ams511 for the info and posting the pic of the MK-1. My set-up is a MK-1/108 which are identical to the photos. I've never had any problems or maintenance issues with what I have, but I'm thinking I'd like to at least upgrade to using an attached pressure gauge. My LDS has the adapters and maybe they can find me a good used gauge as well. I thought this might be a nice added safety feature.

With all that I've heard about the MK-5/109 combination perhaps I'll look into scooping one up on the internet or where ever you guys might recommend. Do you think that upgrading to the more modern MK-5/109 would make a noticeable difference as far as breathing is concerned?
No, actually if you "upgrade" to a Mk-5, and it only has ports to the side, your regulator at depth and under high workload won't breath as well. Scubapro was embarrassed that their Mk-5 performed worse on the U.S. Navy Experimental Diving Unit evaluation of these regulators than their Mk-1. The reason is that the air flow must make a 90 degree turn to go into the hose, rather than going straight down the hose. This results in turbulent flow, which decreases flow rates. Scubapro shortly thereafter changed their Mk-5 to have a port on the top, which then takes the same route as the Mk-1 flow. But a lot of divers do not know about this, and still put their primary regulator on one of the 90 degree angle ports. Because these Scubapro second stages had the adjustment feature that allowed a diver to adjust them to breath hard, these regulators were disapproved for U.S. Navy use.

http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/handle/123456789/4087

So far as the difference between the 108 and the 109 second stage performances, I don't know. See Herman's post above about that one. My favorite Scubapro second stage is my A.I.R. I; it is perhaps the best second stage, performance-wise, of any Scubapro second stages.

SeaRat
 
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John,

You have said this many times and it contradicts every test I have seen. I have read that old (obsolete) NEDU report many times and I don’t see where you get to that conclusion.

Scubapro have sold and continues to sell flow through piston regulators and they have always mounted their primary regulator on one of the side ports.

The Scubapro Mk-5 flow a lot more air (on any of its ports) than most regulators including the Conshelf. And every test that I have seen and performed, it didn’t matter.

I have seen plenty of tests that disagree with your statements.

The flow inside a first stage is fully and extremely turbulent. The extra 90 degree is totally insignificant… it is not even close to being its weakest link (primary pressure drop).

In another post you even tried to drop in a drag coefficient for an HVAC elbow. HVAC ducts works in a totally different Reynolds number range.


The breathing performance of any regulator is driven by the second stage. The only thing the first stage has to do it to supply a reasonably constant IP. The Scubapro MK-5 can do that from any of its ports.




BTW, those old test that the NEDU had, do not tell the full story. They only have one data point per depth. It does not describe the work of breathing. Last year when I was at NEDU I asked one of the researchers about this old data… Lets just say that he just rolled his eyes… no comments.
 
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Luis,

That conclusion comes from the graphs themselves. The same second stage was used on both tests. The graphs are dramatically different.
http://archive.rubicon-foundation.o...456789/4087/NEDU_1970_05letter.pdf?sequence=1

If you look at the graphs, you can see that at 200 feet sea water the Mk 1/Adjustable second stage was pulling just over 5 cm of inhalation resistance at 40 liters/minute RMV (2 liters per breath, 20 breaths per minute; adjustable valve open). The graph for the Mk 5, with the old-style ports (2 on each side) was pulling right at 10 cm water resistance to 200 feet, under identical RMV of 40 liters per minute.

I have seen other EDU tests which do use work of breathing in their evaluation, but that was after the Mk 1 was discontinued.
Evaluation of Commercially Available Open Circuit Scuba Regulators.

There is another evaluation I have somewhere, which does show a difference with the Mk 5, A.I.R. I combination depending upon which port was used. I'm trying to find that report now, but have not done so.

In the interest of fairness, I put together a fast test of my hypothesis, using my Mk 5/A.I.R. I combination. Here is that test:

Hypothesis

The end port on the Scubapro Mk 5 gives better flow rates than the side ports.

Test

Equipment: Twin 53 cubic foot cylinders and the Scubapro Mk 5/A.I.R. I regulator second stage.

Protocol

Each position will be tested for a 1 minute flow, using the purge button depressed to full extent. PSIG before and after 1 minute will be recorded. (I stopped the first test at 30 seconds because I was concerned about the flow emptying the cylinders.) Because of the hypothesis, the end port will be tested second. Readings will be recorded from my Cobra dive computer of psig before and after the test.

Discussion prior tot he test

The end position is postulated to provide an advantage because of straight-through flow. This has been challenged, and so this test will be conducted to determine whether there is a surface advantage. Testing the end position of the regulator will be done second because it would use a lower tank pressure. That should have no effect because the first stage is balanced. However, iic there is an advantage, it would occur for the first position tested (because of higher tank pressure). A Seiko Solar dive watch with a sweep second hand is used to time the test.

Results

A = side port; B = end port

Test 1......................Initial psig............Final psig...............Total psig lost (30 seconds)
A...............................1080..................960.........................120
B................................960...................840.........................120

Test 2 (one minute)
A................................840...................612.........................228
B................................612...................392.........................220

Test 3 (30 seconds)
B................................394...................285.........................109
A................................285...................177.........................108

Conclusion

There is no significant difference between the two positions at surface pressures. This is not surprising, as the study by the EDU only showed significant differences below about 100 feet of sea water.

Obviously, this is a rather primitive study, but it is the best I can do at the moment. It also does seem that the amount of pressure does influence the air flow, which gives an advantage to the first position (higher pressure) to be tested. The EDU used a constant pressure system in their tests of regulators, so that variable was not present in the EDU tests.
____________________________

So Luis, this confirms your position for surface use. I'll look to see if I can find anything else, but the story I heard about Scubapro changing its ports to include a top port stemmed from that study I cited above. I'll put some photos of my test up later.

Luis, I would like to see posted some of the test results you talked about. I like data, and don't just take word-of-mouth, which is why I used the EDU tests.

SeaRat
 
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