How do you feel about solo diving?

[DiverBuoy]

Extra brain
Extra pair of eyes
Extra pair of ears
Extra pair of arms
Extra pair of legs
Extra experience
Extra conscience
Extra life
...and my personal favorite
Extra consciousness

 

[Fetch]

Your analogy falls apart, because the set of problems that a copilot buddy can bail you out of (assuming a similar proficiency level - that is, not a flight instructor) is fairly small (although an extra set of eyes never hurts, hence airline flights do have copilots) especially when compared to the situations a dive buddy can bail you out of.

Dive buddies are terribly useful. In addition to being another set of eyes to prevent screwups in the first place (pretty much what a copilot in a Cessna is doing), they're a useful source of gas, bouyancy, and hands that can reach places on your rig that you cannot. If you have a fairly massive equipment failure in the form of your body, a dive buddy is the only thing getting you out alive.

I didn't want to jump in, but the original analogy was really flawed, and your attempt to expand on it will give people the wrong idea. Its more-or-less along the lines of people who try to use a car analogy, except the car analogy is even sillier.

jeff

Genesis once bubbled...
hit the nail on the head.

Flying and diving are pretty similar activities, really.

When flying, you cannot expect to be "rescued". In fact, its even less likely than it is when diving, since getting into the plane to help you is a bit of a problem.

A person who is untrained in how to fly, but who is with you, is probably of no help at all if you suddenly slump over at the controls. In fact, they might kill you both; if course, doing nothing will probably kill you both too.

You must fly solo in order to demonstrate competency to fly at all. Once you do demonstrate that competency, and get your ticket, it is expected that you will fly on your own, and many people do exactly that. In fact, other than getting further training, its at least somewhat uncommon in a private aviation environment to have a trained person in the right seat; someone may be there, but a second rated pilot? Not all that likely.

Now you might say "but you need a medical." And you'd be right - you do. But a plane is being flown over the top of other people, and if you DO slump over there are other people who are at least somewhat likely to die along with you - maybe a lot of other people, if you're over a populated area. You must also maintain proficiency - but again, this is really about the risks to others, not to yourself.

Interestingly enough, plenty of people fly solo without redundant equipment (single-engine airplanes!) With only one fan, if it stops turning the pilot will be sweating up a storm in a big hurry!

The analogy fits in another way. You are, quite frankly, on life support up there. You can't just get out and walk home. Well, ok, you can get out The walk might be a bit of a problem though. Until and unless you reach the ground in one piece, you cannot realistically "bail" - 'chutes in general aviation are pretty rare.

The same kinds of things that will kill you diving will kill you quite reliably while flying. Cardiac or ischemic problems in the air are not survivable in most general aviation aircraft - for the pilot or anyone else on board. If the aircraft can reach sufficient altitude, then O2 becomes mandatory (or pressurization in the cabin) - if that fails you have trouble as well.

Solo diving seems to be kinda like flying without a rated co-pilot in the right seat, does it not?

 

[kavka]

I do it usualy when I'm in the watter with the camera.
Buddy would be bored and if he or she is is new I'd have to look after also.

 

[Wreck/Tec]

Cyclone
I'm not so sure I'd call nay sayers of solo diving control freaks. It's hard to be mad at someone who is careing about your well being, however, that was an excellant comparison. Well done and well worded.
Wreck/Tec

 

[MikeFerrara]

I have written alot about my opinions about solo diving. Much if not most cave exploration has even been done solo.

I wouldn't compare it to being a solo pilot though. I have spent some time around airports and it seems most licensed pilotes do a pretty good job of landing and other basic skills. Also if a pilot gets confused they can get lots of advice fast over the radio. Lost? No problem. Uncomfortable with the crosswind on one runway? No problem we'll find you another. Get all rattled and the guys on the ground may be able to help. I have been in a plane on a the radio and heard some of the stuff that goes on in a busy pattern. Even if you are in the plane alone you are not without help you have planty of communication and help from the outside. You could be totally lost and clueless but the guys on the ground will know right were you are. They can can advise you on altitude, speed, decent rate traffic. The guys on the ground can vector you around all sorts of trouble like weather and traffic. It is in fact very common for private pilots to fly with other pilots. I have spent much time in the right seat. I am not a pilot but knowing I would be in that seat I took some training and if the pilot slumps I will land and walk. Actually keeping a plane in the air is no harder that steering a car down the center of the road. Landing takes some practice but if you have seen it done you could live through your first landing especially with a little help over the radio. Private pilots often team up for fun and safety. On the other hand most divers I see are have pretty lousy basic skills. A solo diver is in a far more lonely position. There is no other set of eyes or brain. There isn't any radar to advise you of the things you can't see. You can't ask a question. If a diver gets confused or has made the wrong decision there isn't any advice or second opinions available. I think most divers shouldn't dive without a DM let alone without a buddy given the amount of mistakes I see made.


You can dive solo if you want but there is more risk. IMO. at the very least it should be considered a form of technical diving and therefore outside the scopy of most recreational diving. Solo diving certainly is not a good alternative for divers who are not yet good enough to apply the buddy system with success.

 

[Genesis]

you fail the analogy test.

If there is a PERSONAL FAILURE (which is the greatest risk when diving solo - something happens to YOU!) when flying without a second rated person in the right seat you've got a major problem.

You say you'd just 'land and walk away". Oh? In IMC eh? I doubt it.

I'm not rated, but I do know how to fly. I spent close to 40 hours that I couldn't log in the right seat when in college; a friend of mine WAS rated, wanted his instructor ticket, and the only way to do it was to log the hours. I had some money, he had a pilot license. I paid the Hobbs, he flew. I got stick time even though I couldn't log it (but he could); I enjoyed being in the air. It was a good deal all the way around.

If you slump over the controls of a Cessna, I will be very likely to land and walk away. If you do the same thing flying along in a twin in IMC, we're both dead. Yeah, I know the procedures, and theoretically I know how to fly without being able to see out the window to ground references (so does any private pilot, by the way), but executing them is another matter. Wanna talk about "task loading"?

With redundant equipment, a dive buddy's primary assistance is in providing you help in the event of a HUMAN problem. Yes, swimming into fishing line is a human problem (just like flying into power lines - or a mountain - is)

The problem with buddy diving is that two divers in the water doubles the risk of a human problem.

You complain about poor skills Mike. And you may even be right; we've all seen divers who flail and bounce. But does that condemn the practice of being self-reliant, so long as you understand and willingly undertake the risk?

People bend planes with some regularity too.....

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't condemn the practice of being self reliant. I don't even condemn solo diving. However I believe that the casual approach taken to it these days is dangerous.

Comparing it to flying makes no sense to me they are not the same. However even in flying the buddy system provides the most safety. That is why they have co-pilots. That is why I got some training even though I am not the pilot. If the pilot has his hands full I can do some things to help out. A second pilot is better. Solo flying is not the safest and solo diving is not the safest.


Your statement
"The problem with buddy diving is that two divers in the water doubles the risk of a human problem."
seems to make sense but that isn't the way it pans out in the water.

One of the most common problems that gets divers in trouble is a bad decision. The brain is our most important equipment. A buddy gives an extra. Many many situations arise that are easier and safer to deal with for two divers than for one.

I really have nothing against solo diving. However to say it is safer is nothings but dangerous BS. The vast majority should never even consider it.

I am all for self reliance. Two or in some cases three self reliant teammates working together is just about bullet proof.

Agencies, magazines, instructors and divers who promote solo diving for the average rec diver IMO are irresponsible and will contribute to the injury or death of others. Solo diving has been around since diving began and it isn't going away. In some situations it may even be required but most who are promoting it don't even know when. Like cave diving or deep diving I don't think it should be encouraged or justified to a diving public who is so lacking in skill.

Genesis have you ever been alone and had any real trouble under water? Have you faced such situation with a good team about you? Which worked out better?

BTW Genesis I didn't fail an analogy test you did I was responding to your nonsense.

 

[Genesis]

One of the most common problems that gets divers in trouble is a bad decision. The brain is our most important equipment. A buddy gives an extra. Many many situations arise that are easier and safer to deal with for two divers than for one.

Which is why in commercial transport you are required to have two sets of eyes, ears, and brains. In general aviation this is not true.

I really have nothing against solo diving. However to say it is safer is nothings but dangerous BS. The vast majority should never even consider it.

I never said it was safer. You're putting words in my keyboard. I said that with two people in the water there are now more things that can break. This does not make it less safe, but it is a fact that if you have a MTBF of 5,000 hours on some piece of gear if you have two of them statistically speaking one of them will fail every 2,500 hours.

This is elementary mathematics and statistics and no amount of arguing against it will change the facts.

I am all for self reliance. Two or in some cases three self reliant teammates working together is just about bullet proof.

Only if you are trying to argue that one of the biggest risks down there isn't a physiological problem.

The problem with your assertion is that the accident statistics say otherwise. One of the largest risks IS a physiological problem. If you have such a problem, now its not just YOU who may die, but your buddy as well while trying to rescue you.

There is quite an impressive set of double fatalities out there.

I'm willing to bet that in virtually all of them only one of the pair of divers had the original problem. There are also a number of reports of people INTENTIONALLY ditching their buddies while in distress to PREVENT them from attempting a rescue (and possibly killing themselves in the process.)

Agencies, magazines, instructors and divers who promote solo diving for the average rec diver IMO are irresponsible and will contribute to the injury or death of others.

"Here comes the judge."

Get off your high horse Mike.

Solo diving has been around since diving began and it isn't going away. In some situations it may even be required but most who are promoting it don't even know when. Like cave diving or deep diving I don't think it should be encouraged or justified to a diving public who is so lacking in skill.

"Justified"? Get the unholy hell out of my diving! What a hypocrite. More people, as a percentage of divers, have perished or been severely injured cave diving (or diving in an overhead environment of any kind) than recreationally diving - solo or otherwise. Many if not most of them had a buddy. By your standards your personal diving should be discouraged and perhaps even banned because you are engaging in and encouraging (by your talking about it here and elsewhere) an activity that has a statistical risk of death DOZENS of times higher than recreational diving.

Genesis have you ever been alone and had any real trouble under water? Have you faced such situation with a good team about you? Which worked out better?

"Real trouble"? Define "real". Did I die? Obviously not - I'm still here. So what's the definition of "real"? If I didn't solve the problem I would have become fish food? Yep. Been there. Was my buddy of help? Yeah. Would I have become fish food without them? I don't think so. I might be wrong though. Just haven't had the desire to test it.

BTW Genesis I didn't fail an analogy test you did I was responding to your nonsense.

What nonsense was that?

I am not promoting solo diving nor suggesting that it is "safter". In fact, as of the present time, I don't solo dive.

I am, however, stating the statistical facts of the matter - with two people in the water there is twice as much to break, either human or mechanical. If you have reundant kit then the mechanical aspect should be covered within reason (there is a point of diminishing returns for all redundant systems, and for most, a point of NEGATIVE returns!) The human aspect CANNOT be covered.

If you have a coronary underwater you are almost certain to die. With or without a buddy. That is a fact, and no amount of blather about "additional safety" changes it. The difference is that if you have a buddy he or she may very well die attempting a futile rescue, and in fact MANY PEOPLE DO EXACTLY THAT.

To ignore and disclaim the BALANCE OF RISKS associated with diving either with a buddy or solo in an attempt to push one paradigm over the other is DISHONEST.

If you're going to argue the point, then acknowledge the risks and benefits on both sides, and give people the information necessary to make their own, informed decision.

Just like you do when you go cave diving.

 

[redacted]

Genesis once bubbled...
I said that with two people in the water there are now more things that can break. This does not make it less safe, but it is a fact that if you have a MTBF of 5,000 hours on some piece of gear if you have two of them statistically speaking one of them will fail every 2,500 hours.

This is elementary mathematics and statistics and no amount of arguing against it will change the facts.

So if I can find a diver who just had a failure and buddy up with him, I ought to be safe for the next 2,499 hours. Now that might make me give up solo diving.

OK, OK. Maybe we really don't need to get too far into reliability theory and failure distributions. But I'll bet somebody would buy it.

 

[Genesis]

Thank the maker that I'm reasonably certain you understand the difference between statistics over large samples and what can happen with a sample size of one