How happy are you with today's level of Diver Education?

[DiveMom1]

I certified in the 80's and I feel I really worked for that certification. My husband and daughter certified in 2003 in Fiji.. you might as well have just handed them a card because they know soooo little about diving. Finally ready to certify 2 more kids this past summer.. sheesh! Now I have 4 family members that are anxious in the water.. have no clue how to help themselves much less what it "really" means to be a good buddy. No More PADI for a while.

I'm putting them all in the SSI Stress and Rescue class in 2 weeks. Not because of anything other than the reason it helps them identify their own "anxiety triggers" and hepls them learn how to address/overcome them. I still wouldn't think of them as a rescue diver per say.. but hopefully a much safer and cautious diver.

Then they can learn "interest" diving specialities from whomever they like. I hold an pocketful of PADI certs and I sure don't consider myself that good a diver. Yet anyway!!!

 

[DCBC]

I certified in the 80's and I feel I really worked for that certification. My husband and daughter certified in 2003 in Fiji.. you might as well have just handed them a card because they know soooo little about diving. Finally ready to certify 2 more kids this past summer.. sheesh! Now I have 4 family members that are anxious in the water.. have no clue how to help themselves much less what it "really" means to be a good buddy. No More PADI for a while.

I'm putting them all in the SSI Stress and Rescue class in 2 weeks. Not because of anything other than the reason it helps them identify their own "anxiety triggers" and hepls them learn how to address/overcome them. I still wouldn't think of them as a rescue diver per say.. but hopefully a much safer and cautious diver.

Then they can learn "interest" diving specialities from whomever they like. I hold an pocketful of PADI certs and I sure don't consider myself that good a diver. Yet anyway!!!

I agree that PADI has carved up the old program so much that a student has to take a bunch of courses before they've received the training you did by taking an OW course in the 80's.

I left teaching for PADI for this reason. PADI HQ told me that I was doing it wrong; "if you teach them everything in one program, you can't make money on other courses." My comment was "What if they don't come back?"

This is why I maintain that many PADI divers (and divers certified through other organizations that have dropped their standards over the years) are "half-baked" and in some circumstances, unsafe and incapable of looking after themselves and their buddy without the supervision of a DM or Instructor.

To the credit of many Instructors, they do not teach to the minimums. It seems morally and ethically wrong to me that the Individual Instructor has to do what the certification body does not.

 

[ems_is_4_me]

I certified with a PADI one weekend class it was way too big and way too rushed. If I had it to do over I would have took a longer course with a instructor I had talked to and was comfortable with. I do have the skills to dive safe but only because I refuse to die like an idiot. I read and study and plan on furthering my knowledge as soon as money and time allow. Until I get more experience I prefer to dive with experience.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I have just started my IDC (largely not to teach, but to learn what PADI actually tells instructors) and by PADI's own statements, about 2/3rds or more of the people I've seen certified probably should not have been.

Beyond that, the real question to me seems to be not if OW divers are capable of taking care of themselves in common dive situations, but if they are actually expected to?

PADI markets PADI dive trips as part of their diving programs. I have come to believe that they are not trying to train the kind of diver DCBC is talking about. They aren't really trying to train an independent diver. They are trying to train a person who is capable of being led by a DM in the most benign diving conditions imaginable.

They are told, for example, to not dive in conditions that exceed their training experience -- which are, by PADI's requirements, as good as can be had in the locale where they are trained.

I have come to believe that just as PADI's AOW course is called 'advanced,' but is not in any way an advanced course, their OW course is called 'open water' but is not intended to be that.

 

[InTheDrink]

I agree that it is at least morally questionable to allow people into the water that if unattended could easily seriously harm themselves. I think this is wrong. The fact that it happens so rarely is something I have yet to get my head around.

But even if accidents happen fairly rarely, I still think it makes more business sense to train people properly or at least advertise a very basic course for what it is, rather than calling it 'Open Water'.

Sadly price is the ultimate definer of standards. PADI have found the absolute lowest cost of selling training without getting their asses sued to high hell. In fact, that should be their strap line.

J

 

[Kingpatzer]

I agree that it is at least morally questionable to allow people into the water that if unattended could easily seriously harm themselves. I think this is wrong. The fact that it happens so rarely is something I have yet to get my head around.

But even if accidents happen fairly rarely, I still think it makes more business sense to train people properly or at least advertise a very basic course for what it is, rather than calling it 'Open Water'.

Given what seem to be rather low incidents when divers dive within the level of their training and under supervision, as PADI recommends, it seems taking a position that training is in fact adequate to that purpose is at least arguable.

I honestly vacillate on this point not because I think divers engaged in frequent diving without divemasters over their shoulders should be better trained than what PADI provides, but rather because I also think that for the kind of diving PADI advocates for OW divers, their training does seem to be adequate to the task.

On some thread recently, it was noted that pilots are trained in similarly short periods of time, and the skills and knowledge required for that endeavor are more complex (in my mind) than those required for diving.

Sadly price is the ultimate definer of standards. PADI have found the absolute lowest cost of selling training without getting their asses sued to high hell. In fact, that should be their strap line.

PADI is in the business of selling certifications -- something they share with all other certification agencies. That is the biggest reason that all divers, not just those trained by PADI, benefit greatly from a relationship with a diving mentor over and above their actual training.

We focus a great deal on the training aspect, but is there not also a moral charge to be leveled at experienced divers for not doing more to encourage and seek out new divers to be mentored?

It seems to me that I see far more posts about experienced divers being pissed off at being buddied up with a new or inexperienced diver than I see posts about how the experienced diver was given a great opportunity to help a new diver improve.

It is easy to point the finger at someone else, but is it really all their fault?

 

[DCBC]

On some thread recently, it was noted that pilots are trained in similarly short periods of time, and the skills and knowledge required for that endeavor are more complex (in my mind) than those required for diving.

I think that this is an unfair comparison. Besides, there is no place in the world where you can become a licensed pilot in 3 or 4 days.

For a Private License you require a minimum of 40 hours of training (logged in a similar way as "underwater time") as well as ground school and meet government exams. You are usually examined by both a chief flying instructor and a FAA examiner (in the U.S.). It took me 6 months and cost $12,000 for the first level (Private) and about $40,000 more for the Commercial over another 18 months.

...We focus a great deal on the training aspect, but is there not also a moral charge to be leveled at experienced divers for not doing more to encourage and seek out new divers to be mentored?

As Instructors, training is what we should be focusing on. Neither the certification agency, not the Instructor can hand off the responsibility for new diver safety to a Mentor.

Assisting a new diver should not be forced on anyone. If the Mentor wishes to help the new diver, s/he should not be required to place themselves in danger to do so. There is no excuse for an Instructor to certify a diver if the diver hasn't proved themselves competent.

Some divers shouldn't be allowed to leave the pool, let alone leave the Instructor with a certification card. It's about personal responsibility. It appears that there are some Instructors who don't take this seriously IMO.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Assisting a new diver should not be forced on anyone. If the Mentor wishes to help the new diver, s/he should not be required to place themselves in danger to do so. There is no excuse for an Instructor to certify a diver if the diver hasn't proved themselves competent.

I don't recall saying "forced."

But it seems to me that the many of those who lament the current education system also tend to laud the previous club systems that existed. What was that besides structured mentoring.

 

[Walter]

PADI is in the business of selling certifications

True.

something they share with all other certification agencies.

Not all. Some, maybe even most, but some are in the business of selling training.

 

[DCBC]

But it seems to me that the many of those who lament the current education system also tend to laud the previous club systems that existed. What was that besides structured mentoring.

Yes and I agree that that's a preferable way of doing it. The difference I see is that with the Club system:

1. The divers are not trained in a shake-and-bake system (from my experience training is more inclusive, without hurray);

2. The diver is fully trained to dive as a competent member of a buddy team the first day he's certified (in other words is competent to rescue the Mentor if this is required);

3. The Mentor and the diver know each other, live in the same area and are member of the same club.

I think what you hear about divers complaining about being buddied with someone they don't know, is different in-that the new diver is not competent and sometimes is a danger to the senior diver. Most Mentors do not want to deal with such eventuality. They want to dive and enjoy themselves as well.

There's a difference between helping someone gain experience and worrying about their safety, as well as their own. As Instructors we are paid to do so. It is our responsibility to ensure that the diver is safe, before he's certified.

I've never heard a complaint about someone being put in a buddy pair with a competent diver. The problem occurs when they aren't.