How those idiots (us) run out of air

[flots am]

Really? How does being proficient at CESA help you if you are entangled? How does it help you if a tank fell out of your BC? How does it help you from picking a dive that is well beyond your abilities? How does it help you assess the best way to enter and exit a dive site? How does it help you if your dive computer fails?

As far as I can tell, all CESA does is give you a last ditch solution for one very specific problem that should be completely avoidable in the first place. And its not even the right first answer for that problem.

You're really going to do this? OK. I'll bite.

How does being proficient at CESA help you if you are entangled?

Entanglement is not an air delivery issue. You don't run out of air because you're entangled, you run out because you don't monitor your air supply. If you were doing an open water dive with a buddy, either you or your buddy could cut you out of the entanglement long before air became a problem. If you're entangled and running out of air it's because you were trying out for a Darwin Award and weren't planning your dive with proper reserves. Even if you found a giant drift net on the up-line, you should still have plenty of air to deal with it.

How does it help you if a tank fell out of your BC?

Your tank falling out of your BC is not an air delviery issue. You still have plenty of air.

The worst problem you'll have is embarrassment. The tank is still attached by the hose that goes to your BC inflator, and your regulator and probably your SPG/computer. It's not going anywhere, although you'll look a little "disorganized"

How does it help you from picking a dive that is well beyond your abilities?

It doesn't. However again, this isn't an air delivery problem and you're still breathing.

If you jump in and discover the dive is not to your liking, you can simply ascend and end the dive.

How does it help you assess the best way to enter and exit a dive site?

What does this have to do with anything?

How does it help you if your dive computer fails?

A computer failure is completely irrelevant. If your computer fails, you end the dive. Your air does not stop just because your computer is malfunctioning.

As far as I can tell, all CESA does is give you a last ditch solution for one very specific problem that should be completely avoidable in the first place. And its not even the right first answer for that problem.

A CESA is the answer to exactly one problem: "I'm out of air and don't have any nearby," which in reality is just about the only real problem that can happen on an OW dive. As long as you're still breathing, everything else is just an annoyance.

It's a solid, workable plan that any diver can do and that works well nearly 100% of the time when done properly.

It should be avoidable, but for some people isn't. For whatever reason, some people run out of air and can't or won't share. In these cases returning to the surface is a safe alternative.

flots.

 

[Adobo]

You're really going to do this? OK. I'll bite.

How does being proficient at CESA help you ...

Entanglement is not an air delivery issue.

Your tank falling out of your BC is not an air delviery issue.

It doesn't. However again, this isn't an air delivery problem and you're still breathing.

What does this have to do with anything?

A computer failure is completely irrelevant. If your computer fails, you end the dive. Your air does not stop just because your computer is malfunctioning.

Let's rewind just a little bit.

I said:

The problem I have with CESAs is that it is not a magic bullet and is not a good solution for *all* the various ways one can find himself in a fuster cluck.

Note that I never made reference to air delivery issues. Anyway, to which you replied:

Actually for an Open Water dive, a properly done CESA is a "magic bullet".....

Your "magic bullet" wasn't even appropriate for the OP and his dive. When he ran out of gas, what would your suggestion be? Do a CESA as opposed to going to the dive master who is right next to him? If you read the details of the OPs dive, you might realize that your statement about CESAs just doesn't pass the sanity test.

Let's face it. We are all Monday morning quarterbacking the OP.

If I am gonna second guess the OP's actions, I am going to go way upstream of all of these problems in the first place which is the dive planning phase. Because in my proposed approach, no heroic actions are required. No feats of strength. No emergency anything. Just a nice relaxed dive where everyone has fun.

You and Dan can preach and teach CESAs all the live long day. That's up to you. But out of curiosity, how would that help the OP or anyone else from repeating the same mistakes the OP made during the dive that compelled him to create this thread?

A CESA is the answer to exactly one problem: "I'm out of air and don't have any nearby," which in reality is just about the only real problem that can happen on an OW dive. As long as you're still breathing, everything else is just an annoyance.

This statement seems to sum up the difference between how you and I approach a dive. To me,

• a tank sliding out of a BC
• a diver getting entangled in fishing line or kelp without his buddy being nearby to assist
• a diver surfacing next to wash rocks in heavy surge
• a diver jumping into the water without a reg and a mask on and then nearly drowning
• a diver getting tumbled in the surf zone unable to get out of the water because the conditions/waves are rough...

all these things constitute a fuster cluck. And by the way, I have seen these things time and again being done at the local recreational dive sites.

I take great care such that neither I nor my dive buddy find ourselves in these situations in the first place. And it is the approach I advocate to people in the internet. You can advocate your, "as long as you are breathing, everything else is just a annoyance" approach. But I suspect that is the same approach that has been advocated to those divers I see tumbling in the surf zone with tanks dangling out of their BCs. And maybe its just me but that just doesn't seem like a fun (or safe) way to dive.

 

[captain]

Let's rewind just a little bit.

I said:



Note that I never made reference to air delivery issues. Anyway, to which you replied:



Your "magic bullet" wasn't even appropriate for the OP and his dive. When he ran out of gas, what would your suggestion be? Do a CESA as opposed to going to the dive master who is right next to him? If you read the details of the OPs dive, you might realize that your statement about CESAs just doesn't pass the sanity test.

Let's face it. We are all Monday morning quarterbacking the OP.

If I am gonna second guess the OP's actions, I am going to go way upstream of all of these problems in the first place which is the dive planning phase. Because in my proposed approach, no heroic actions are required. No feats of strength. No emergency anything. Just a nice relaxed dive where everyone has fun.

You and Dan can preach and teach CESAs all the live long day. That's up to you. But out of curiosity, how would that help the OP or anyone else from repeating the same mistakes the OP made during the dive that compelled him to create this thread?



This statement seems to sum up the difference between how you and I approach a dive. To me,

• a tank sliding out of a BC
• a diver getting entangled in fishing line or kelp without his buddy being nearby to assist
• a diver surfacing next to wash rocks in heavy surge
• a diver jumping into the water without a reg and a mask on and then nearly drowning
• a diver getting tumbled in the surf zone unable to get out of the water because the conditions/waves are rough...

all these things constitute a fuster cluck. And by the way, I have seen these things time and again being done at the local recreational dive sites.

I take great care such that neither I nor my dive buddy find ourselves in these situations in the first place. And it is the approach I advocate to people in the internet. You can advocate your, "as long as you are breathing, everything else is just a annoyance" approach. But I suspect that is the same approach that has been advocated to those divers I see tumbling in the surf zone with tanks dangling out of their BCs. And maybe its just me but that just doesn't seem like a fun (or safe) way to dive.

Perhaps you should compare your profile to Flots am's profile.

 

[flots am]

Your "magic bullet" wasn't even appropriate for the OP and his dive. When he ran out of gas, what would your suggestion be? Do a CESA as opposed to going to the dive master who is right next to him?

Given that the OP was only on a 50' dive and that apparently his wife also either ran out or almost ran out, a CESA would not be an unreasonable choice. I'd like to see everybody's faces when the DM was sharing air with the OP and then the wife came over, also out of air.

You need a plan to save your own bacon that doesn't rely on some stranger.

Do a CESA as opposed to going to the dive master who is right next to him?

The DM was actually swimming away. Even if he was right there, I've actually seen DMs that responded to "out of air" with the same dumb look that I usually get when making funny noises at my dog. If I were out of air and the surface was 50' "up" and the DM was off in the distance not looking at me, "what to do" is an easy choice.

I take great care such that neither I nor my dive buddy find ourselves in these situations in the first place.

I have news for you and your buddy "Sh** happens." You can plan all you want, but an uneventful dive is never a sure thing. Coming out of it alive requires having an easily workable plan for "what to do when nothing else works" and for a recreational open water dive, a CESA is it.

flots.

 

[danvolker]

Maybe the problem is that we have bickered so much among ourselves, everyone forgot what the OP said...
.... In a nutshell, he said that on the 2nd dive, he flashed 1800 psi when it should have been 1300, and then the DM swam further away from the couple AND THEY FELT COMPELLED TO FOLLOW. AND ..the DM was swimming away and they lost eye contact ( my assumption by interpretation ). All of this posturing is really about right at this point..... I am saying that at the point where he was down to around 1000 ( or the wife was), even if the DM was not looking at them, and still swimming away---at that point--the couple now fairly far away from the ascent line should have begun an immediate ascent to the surface--with no DM and without the line.


CESA, fast ascents without stops...all this is regarding what would have occurred had they gotten down to 250psi at 60 ft, and the DM still had no eye contact, and they were still not at ascent line.

At 250psi, they could both probably still manage a buoyant ascent without ever running OOA...and on the surface, the BC's would both be inflated, so they would not drown ( common ending after OOA incident when new divers do reach the surface, but are panicked and without an inflated BC....

When they found themselves at 1000, the risk was whether or not the DM would actually LOOK AT THEM and give them to chance to flash an OOA sign( or LOA) to the DM...and get them in fast while air supply still remained. This is essentially tossing the dice....it was gambling....They gambled, and they won. I think it was a bad bet, even though they won it.

I think the immediate controlled ascent should have occurred at 1000 psi straight to the surface....and then when they refused to make this choice, when they were down to 500 psi, they should have headed straight up, and this is where talk of a CESA may have come in to play at some point, unless the ascent from 250psi was a fast buoyant ascent with no stop....But somewhere around here, Darwin was knocked unconscious, and the DM's ( 2 apparently), arrived and we had two air shares up the line to the surface.

Both of my two paths here would have been smarter, or better bets than the one of hoping the DM's would save the day...

 

[maniago]

....this thread has gone on overdrive. I'm sure the NSA is taking note that noone is working today.

 

[supergaijin]

Free water ascents: You need to know which way is 'Up'. Your bubbles go up... so follow your bubbles.

Not always the case...

Washing machines at 60'. down-currents and the like are conditions that the OP should never experience. I will correct myself to say: "Your bubbles (in 99.99% of the sites you will probably ever dive as a beginner) go up; follow them.

Getting postive on the surface gives you limited options, there was a thread recently about a guy who lost both legs - in part I believe because he couldn't quickly descend again after surfacing

.... and seatbelts could break your neck if you have a car accident. You are being argumentative IMO as this thread is in the 'Basic Forum'. Being 'positive' on the surface is only a good thing for divers at this stage. The incident about the guy who lost his legs is an unfortunate accident- nothing more. Certainly it should not be an argument against getting positive on the surface!

Dive computers also give a good indication of ascent speed. Ears popping also indicate an ascent.

Not really, they usually lag and by the time they're beeping you can already be exceeding the recommended ascent rate. Look at a lot of rec. profiles downloaded from PDCs and you'll usually see a few ascent rate violations

Computers take a reading every 3 seconds or so. You are correct that it is possible to exceed a safe ascent rate (for 3 seconds) before the computer starts beeping at you. However most ascents will take more than 3 seconds.... Again I would ask: For a beginner forum, why nit-pick at the minutia?

 

[Adobo]

Perhaps you should compare your profile to Flots am's profile.

I'll be the first to admit that I have been wrong plenty of times before and will likely be wrong plenty more times in the future. And its quite possible that I am completely wrong with all my recent replies.

But I have no earthly idea how looking at someone's profile will help me understand how I might be misguided or misinformed.

---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 09:22 PM ----------

Maybe the problem is that we have bickered so much among ourselves, everyone forgot what the OP said...
.... In a nutshell, he said that on the 2nd dive, he flashed 1800 psi when it should have been 1300, and then the DM swam further away from the couple AND THEY FELT COMPELLED TO FOLLOW. AND ..the DM was swimming away and they lost eye contact ( my assumption by interpretation ). All of this posturing is really about right at this point..... I am saying that at the point where he was down to around 1000 ( or the wife was), even if the DM was not looking at them, and still swimming away---at that point--the couple now fairly far away from the ascent line should have begun an immediate ascent to the surface--with no DM and without the line.


CESA, fast ascents without stops...all this is regarding what would have occurred had they gotten down to 250psi at 60 ft, and the DM still had no eye contact, and they were still not at ascent line.

At 250psi, they could both probably still manage a buoyant ascent without ever running OOA...and on the surface, the BC's would both be inflated, so they would not drown ( common ending after OOA incident when new divers do reach the surface, but are panicked and without an inflated BC....

When they found themselves at 1000, the risk was whether or not the DM would actually LOOK AT THEM and give them to chance to flash an OOA sign( or LOA) to the DM...and get them in fast while air supply still remained. This is essentially tossing the dice....it was gambling....They gambled, and they won. I think it was a bad bet, even though they won it.

I think the immediate controlled ascent should have occurred at 1000 psi straight to the surface....and then when they refused to make this choice, when they were down to 500 psi, they should have headed straight up, and this is where talk of a CESA may have come in to play at some point, unless the ascent from 250psi was a fast buoyant ascent with no stop....But somewhere around here, Darwin was knocked unconscious, and the DM's ( 2 apparently), arrived and we had two air shares up the line to the surface.

Both of my two paths here would have been smarter, or better bets than the one of hoping the DM's would save the day...

Dan,

I guess what I am not understanding is why we even bother digging deeper about this CESA thing. Like I said, we are all Monday morning quarterbacking this thing at this point. If you could go back and only change one aspect of the events that unfolded during this dive, what would it be? Would it be to go to when they were down to 250psi? Or would it be to go back to the point were they were putting together the plans for the dive?

---------- Post added July 5th, 2013 at 09:32 PM ----------

You need a plan to save your own bacon that doesn't rely on some stranger.

I've always felt that if I wind up diving with an inattentive buddy who is a stranger and is perhaps not suitable for the dive we are about to do, that it isn't my buddy's fault.

The DM was actually swimming away. Even if he was right there, I've actually seen DMs that responded to "out of air" with the same dumb look that I usually get when making funny noises at my dog. If I were out of air and the surface was 50' "up" and the DM was off in the distance not looking at me, "what to do" is an easy choice.

That's fine except that wasn't the case here. When the OP asked for gas, he got gas. To me, getting gas from the guy who is 5 feet away from you is far better than having to CESA 50ft for gas.

I have news for you and your buddy "Sh** happens." You can plan all you want, but an uneventful dive is never a sure thing. Coming out of it alive requires having an easily workable plan for "what to do when nothing else works" and for a recreational open water dive, a CESA is it.

Well, I'll defer to your superior profile. If ever I have the misfortune of finding myself with a flooded drysuit in the cool waters of Monterey and 30 minutes away from shore, I will execute a CESA since that is apparently the magic bullet. Or if ever I pull off the corrugated hose of my BC while at depth or if I am being tumbled in the surf zone, CESA it is.

 

[TSandM]

Given that the OP was only on a 50' dive and that apparently his wife also either ran out or almost ran out, a CESA would not be an unreasonable choice

Adobo's point, which is absolutely valid and has been stated and which I will reiterate now, is that the CESA is a response to ending up in the bottom of an incident pit, where the proper answer is not to get in the pit in the first place.

We go around about this at fairly predictable intervals here on SB. Do you focus your attention on training divers in a procedure that is a last-ditch response to a situation they should never have been in in the first place, or do you spend your time teaching them the knowledge and procedures that will prevent them from ever encountering that situation?

In the absence of a catastrophic equipment malfunction -- massive freeflow, or dip tube clog, or something similar -- running out of gas is ALWAYS pilot error. It begins with a failure to compare the available gas supply to the proposed profile. It continues with a failure to monitor gas, or in this case, some very bad decision-making about coping with being low on gas. Gas doesn't magically disappear; it comes in a finite supply, and the length of time one can use that supply is actually pretty easy to predict.

What happened here was that there were two issues -- staying with the guide, and ending the dive because of a low gas supply. The divers chose the former, when the latter was appropriate. We have heard why -- they felt unprepared to do a free ascent. Anyone diving off a boat should be prepared to do a free ascent, because that's the answer to any number of problems, including freeflows, buddy separation, low on gas situations, a lost mask, etc. If you are unprepared to perform a basic safety procedure that is actually not unlikely to be necessary on the kind of dive you are doing, you are going to be in a bad place if that procedure is called for.

I think -- I hope -- that the OP and his wife have learned this, and know that they chose a dive for which they weren't really suited. Bill's questions about how to master free ascents indicate to me that he knows this.

Whether they should have air-shared or CESA'd is discussion rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Adobo]

Whether they should have air-shared or CESA'd is discussion rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

To be fair, everyone on the Titanic performed a CESA when the ship went down. At least, that's what happened in the movie.