How those idiots (us) run out of air

[dumpsterDiver]

Adobo's point, which is absolutely valid and has been stated and which I will reiterate now, is that the CESA is a response to ending up in the bottom of an incident pit, where the proper answer is not to get in the pit in the first place.

We go around about this at fairly predictable intervals here on SB. Do you focus your attention on training divers in a procedure that is a last-ditch response to a situation they should never have been in in the first place, or do you spend your time teaching them the knowledge and procedures that will prevent them from ever encountering that situation?

In the absence of a catastrophic equipment malfunction -- massive freeflow, or dip tube clog, or something similar -- running out of gas is ALWAYS pilot error. It begins with a failure to compare the available gas supply to the proposed profile. It continues with a failure to monitor gas, or in this case, some very bad decision-making about coping with being low on gas. Gas doesn't magically disappear; it comes in a finite supply, and the length of time one can use that supply is actually pretty easy to predict.

What happened here was that there were two issues -- staying with the guide, and ending the dive because of a low gas supply. The divers chose the former, when the latter was appropriate. We have heard why -- they felt unprepared to do a free ascent. Anyone diving off a boat should be prepared to do a free ascent, because that's the answer to any number of problems, including freeflows, buddy separation, low on gas situations, a lost mask, etc. If you are unprepared to perform a basic safety procedure that is actually not unlikely to be necessary on the kind of dive you are doing, you are going to be in a bad place if that procedure is called for.

I think -- I hope -- that the OP and his wife have learned this, and know that they chose a dive for which they weren't really suited. Bill's questions about how to master free ascents indicate to me that he knows this.

Whether they should have air-shared or CESA'd is discussion rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

180 posts and all it takes is one paragraph to summarize...

 

[supergaijin]

To be fair, everyone on the Titanic performed a CESA when the ship went down. At least, that's what happened in the movie.

People were breathing compressed air in the Titanic movie?

 

[billt4sf]

Adobo's point, which is absolutely valid and has been stated and which I will reiterate now, is that the CESA is a response to ending up in the bottom of an incident pit, where the proper answer is not to get in the pit in the first place.

We go around about this at fairly predictable intervals here on SB. Do you focus your attention on training divers in a procedure that is a last-ditch response to a situation they should never have been in in the first place, or do you spend your time teaching them the knowledge and procedures that will prevent them from ever encountering that situation?

In the absence of a catastrophic equipment malfunction -- massive freeflow, or dip tube clog, or something similar -- running out of gas is ALWAYS pilot error. It begins with a failure to compare the available gas supply to the proposed profile. It continues with a failure to monitor gas, or in this case, some very bad decision-making about coping with being low on gas. Gas doesn't magically disappear; it comes in a finite supply, and the length of time one can use that supply is actually pretty easy to predict.

What happened here was that there were two issues -- staying with the guide, and ending the dive because of a low gas supply. The divers chose the former, when the latter was appropriate. We have heard why -- they felt unprepared to do a free ascent. Anyone diving off a boat should be prepared to do a free ascent, because that's the answer to any number of problems, including freeflows, buddy separation, low on gas situations, a lost mask, etc. If you are unprepared to perform a basic safety procedure that is actually not unlikely to be necessary on the kind of dive you are doing, you are going to be in a bad place if that procedure is called for.

I think -- I hope -- that the OP and his wife have learned this, and know that they chose a dive for which they weren't really suited. Bill's questions about how to master free ascents indicate to me that he knows this.

Whether they should have air-shared or CESA'd is discussion rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

If we had ascended when I first had the thought "I don't have enough gas for this" we would have had enough gas to get to the surface safely. I don't think we would have panicked but who knows. We probably would have been able to execute a slow ascent -- obviously we need to learn and practice that. We are able to hold a given depth (even 5') pretty well, so I think it's mostly a question of gaining confidence.

If that means we were not qualified to do the dive, I'd wager that a fair portion of divers we have dived with on this trip are similarly situated. Most people I have talked to do have never shot a bag at depth -- if they even have one. Even those with 100's of dives. Many of them dive only on on vacation. They do free ascents, e.g. drift dives, without a bag and we'll try that.

We have made a conscious choice, initially driven by Emily, to dive continuously throughout the year, to keep up our skills and to develop them. We make mistakes but we're enjoying the process. Thanks for your help.

On to Bonaire!

Bill

 

[dumpsterDiver]

People are making such a big deal about shooting an SMB for the ascent. This is NOT required and I think the diver should first master what everyone is calling the "blue water ascent" BEFORE they screw around with the SMB reel and line or spool. We dove for 25 years before anyone was really using SMB in the recreational community.

Even though being able to deploy an smb at depth has huge benefits, it is still NOT common among recreational divers (tourists).

The ability to NOT kill yourself when making a direct ascent (should the need arise) is essential, the use of a smb underwater is significantly less important.

When I taught my (pre-teen) boys to dive, they could perform a "blue water" ascent perfectly. First it was by simply staying with me, and I set the ascent rate and then after a few dozen of those, then I let them "lead" the ascent, and then AFTER that (and after watching me do the SMB deployment from 20 ft many times) they begin to learn to do it themselves. It is a somewhat challenging skill, easy to sink down or float up, easy to get tangled, easy to forget to look at their buddy etc.

Where we dive in strong currents and all drift diving it is an important skill, but not as important as being able to simply get to the surface unharmed if things go very wrong on a dive.

This video shows him learning (at the age of 12) and we are not staying together so well, but he is learning. We don't use a reel or spool, just wrap the weighted line around the smb. Probably simplest method. Skip to 30 seconds or so.


[video=youtube_share;CE3cPJ40N7w]http://youtu.be/CE3cPJ40N7w[/video]

 

[maniago]

On to Bonaire!
Bill

Good for you - get the heck outta here and go diving! All the gnashing of teeth and bar bubbles here is fun, if not even good learning, but its the water we live for so go get wet and enjoy. And be safe!

---------- Post added July 6th, 2013 at 08:51 AM ----------

I think the diver should first master what everyone is calling the "blue water ascent"

Sorry everyone, stupid question, but is a blue water ascent the same as a free ascent, ie ascent (and safety stop) without reference save for your computer? If so, I do these at least half the time in the quarries, but blue water it sure aint! I didn't know it was of special significance, and was not really trained that it had special significance....

Or is it a CESA from extreme depth?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If we had ascended when I first had the thought "I don't have enough gas for this" we would have had enough gas to get to the surface safely. I don't think we would have panicked but who knows. We probably would have been able to execute a slow ascent -- obviously we need to learn and practice that. We are able to hold a given depth (even 5') pretty well, so I think it's mostly a question of gaining confidence.

If that means we were not qualified to do the dive, I'd wager that a fair portion of divers we have dived with on this trip are similarly situated.

Based on what I've seen on most of my dive trips to tropical diving vacations, I'd say that's a fair statement. A lot of divers ... possibly the majority ... have developed a dependency on their dive guide to keep them safe.

The question is, do you and Emily want to be like those divers? That's a question each and every one of us decides for ourselves.

I knew a fellow years back named Sparky. He was a great guy ... lots of fun and enthusiasm ... and a brand new diver. I took him on his first dive after OW class. A couple weeks later I got a phone call from Sparky. He was in Florida, and had just done his first boat dive. He thought it was very exciting. During the conversation Sparky mentioned that he was the most experienced diver on the boat. Sparky, at the time, had eight dives.

Enjoy Bonaire. Depending on where you're staying, and the "house reef" you're diving, might be a good place to get out and practice a few free ascents. The house reef in front of Buddy's or Capt. Don's would be ideal for it ... the top of the reef's just about the right depth, and it's an easy swim in.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

People are making such a big deal about shooting an SMB for the ascent. This is NOT required and I think the diver should first master what everyone is calling the "blue water ascent" BEFORE they screw around with the SMB reel and line or spool. We dove for 25 years before anyone was really using SMB in the recreational community.

Even though being able to deploy an smb at depth has huge benefits, it is still NOT common among recreational divers (tourists).

The ability to NOT kill yourself when making a direct ascent (should the need arise) is essential, the use of a smb underwater is significantly less important.

When I taught my (pre-teen) boys to dive, they could perform a "blue water" ascent perfectly. First it was by simply staying with me, and I set the ascent rate and then after a few dozen of those, then I let them "lead" the ascent, and then AFTER that (and after watching me do the SMB deployment from 20 ft many times) they begin to learn to do it themselves. It is a somewhat challenging skill, easy to sink down or float up, easy to get tangled, easy to forget to look at their buddy etc.

Where we dive in strong currents and all drift diving it is an important skill, but not as important as being able to simply get to the surface unharmed if things go very wrong on a dive.

This video shows him learning (at the age of 12) and we are not staying together so well, but he is learning. We don't use a reel or spool, just wrap the weighted line around the smb. Probably simplest method. Skip to 30 seconds or so.


[video=youtube_share;CE3cPJ40N7w]http://youtu.be/CE3cPJ40N7w[/video]

DD...that looked like a small weight on the end of the line your smb had...the purpose to prevent the line from staying on one place and potentially tangling while you unroll it--with the weight, the line would pay out and be straight down....so no tangles as you blow air into the smb and it begins to rise.... This makes a lot of sense for a lot of divers trying to have this smb use in their arsenal!

And I totally agree with you that the smb deployment from depth is not an initial skill ( as in BOW or even AOW)...It is much more important to be good at ascents without a "crutch", to be able to watch small bubbles and to have great ease in the return to the surface....I am also thinking that a diver that learned from open water dive #1 to go up an ascent line, is like a kid taught to ride a bike with a training wheel, and who has become afraid to not use the training wheel....now fear and the unknown conspire to prevent divers like this from ever ascending without an up-line. The reality is that the line for ascent is far less "needed" than the training wheel for a new cyclist....but is apparently even more powerful in the way it creates an absolute dependence.

I have seen tech divers from up North, that did wrecks with us here in Palm Beach...and on the free floating ascent and deco, they were actually freaked and had a terrible time regulating their ascent in trim--because they were so uncomfortable with this departure from their norm, that they were not processing minutia well any longer. They had the need skill--they just were not focusing on the right things. This is an issue that needs to be fixed even before AOW, if you ask me.

---------- Post added July 6th, 2013 at 09:15 AM ----------

Good for you - get the heck outta here and go diving! All the gnashing of teeth and bar bubbles here is fun, if not even good learning, but its the water we live for so go get wet and enjoy. And be safe!

---------- Post added July 6th, 2013 at 08:51 AM ----------



Sorry everyone, stupid question, but is a blue water ascent the same as a free ascent, ie ascent (and safety stop) without reference save for your computer? If so, I do these at least half the time in the quarries, but blue water it sure aint! I didn't know it was of special significance, and was not really trained that it had special significance....

Or is it a CESA from extreme depth?

This "Blue Water Ascent" is almost humour in the conversation.......To all of us in Florida, there is an ascent....and there is doing an ascent on a line because of some reason to stay with the line( where you would be on the surface).

A poster began calling this ascent without the crutch of an ascent line, a "blue water ascent", and their meaning was that there was no line to follow, that you had to figure out which way was up, go in that direction , and you had no line to grab onto if you needed to slow your ascent, or to stay at a fixed point on a safety stop. With the Blue water ascent, ( with a normal ascent), you decide it is time to go up, and from a neutral buoyancy, you begin swimming up, often seeing your small bubbles and using them for somewhat of a speed gauge and directional marker.....and you use your depth gauge and or computer to ensure that ascent rate is within the speed you deem prudent--for most divers around 30 feet per minute. When you hit 15 feet or so, you come to a stop..your depth gauge alerted you to the depth of 20 or 15 feet deep, and then you use this tool to maintain that depth for 3 to 5 minutes. You are supposed to have the skill to hold a stop within 5 feet or so, without hanging on to a line. That is what basic open water and advanced open water training should guarantee.

 

[beanojones]

People were breathing compressed air in the Titanic movie?

If they left the ship when it was under water. Places with bridges get to see what happens when people breathe compressed air from the passenger compartment of an immersed car, and the hold their breath in the swim to the surface.

 

[captain]

Many times even on a dive with an anchored boat I will go to the anchor and then do a blue water accent straight up. I pretty much know I will surface within easy reach of the boat. It is easier than hanging on a bucking anchor line if the seas are bouncing the boat around.

To me the CESA is like my homeowner insurance policy, I hope I will never need it. I have smoke detectors and fire extinguishers and a fire department (buddy) to rely on for help. I don't plan on needing insurance but I renew the policy every year even though I may not have needed it for 30 years. For the same reason I renew my CESA skills periodically. It's really cheap insurance.

 

[flots am]

If that means we were not qualified to do the dive, I'd wager that a fair portion of divers we have dived with on this trip are similarly situated.

That's correct.

Most of the people you see on "follow the DM" dives would never leave the boat if there was no DM and captain had simply stopped the boat and said "said "We're here!"

flots