How those idiots (us) run out of air

[beanojones]

Appropriate dive planning and buddy checks are not "ritual". They're an integral part of diving ... which is why they're part of every agency's OW curriculum. The reason so many people don't do them is because their "scuba instructor" taught them to be dependent on someone else to do those things for them ... which is how threads like this one come to be ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Did you actually read the content of the first post, or just the thread title? I'll quote it here just so we all remember what the topic at hand is.

First dive in a new location (St Eustatius). Heavy (for us) current at surface. Descended and regs sucked water. Returned to surface, changed regs and went down again with 2200 lbs. A bit anxious due to new environment and surface conditions. Had 1800 at bottom( 50 ft). Swam around a bit and signalled to DM at half a tank. Went a little bit more (1st mistake) and signalled to DM 1800 (but I meant to signal 1300). As with every dive guide I have ever had, she turned and went further from ascent line. Now the anxiety increased and air consumption with it. Back to ascent line at 500 and we began sharing air. My wife ran our of air shortly after me, she probably was overanxious about me.

We all returned safely and ascended slowly. So a happy ending. But we did both run out, and good thing there were TWO dive guides!

This was a failure of in water dive procedure, and inappropriate ocean behavior and had nothing to do with a failure of dive planning or gas planning or any of those rituals. Though it was a failure of dive preparation, (which see below)

---------- Post added July 7th, 2013 at 04:08 AM ----------

Diving without having some forethought about gas planning to me seems a lot like getting directions where you are told to "take a left about a mile before you get to the church." You know, just divine any of the answers you need. Although, I think anyone who was semi-conscious while reading through any part of this thread would realize that this approach did not work out very well for the OP.

And as far as head to toe checks go, you are welcome to splash into the water as unaware of the status of your equipment as you like. As for me (and my dive buddy), I like to make sure that regulators work, that inflators work and are still attached to BCs, that masks are not leaking, that fins are attached securely, etc. before I splash into the water. But maybe one day I will be a dive pro like you and won't think that I need any of my equipment to be in proper working order in order to enjoy a dive.

Are you trying to have a conversation here is Basic Scuba Discussions or just be snide? Because you started your post about gas planning (nothing to do with the OP), threw in some insults, and then talked about pre-dive safety checks, and then added some extraneous insults.

The problem is that gas planning (whatever that means to you) has nothing to do with the rest of your post, or the OP. Though I think a Pre-Dive safety check (that done properly takes about 15 seconds) is a good thing, it still has nothing to do with the problems in the OP. Getting ready to go diving does. That's what the OP failed to do, and that's what got him in trouble. It's the diver, not the equipment that failed on this dive.

He failed to get ready to go diving precisely not because he needs to do more unnecessary ritual before going diving. Giving someone who is not ready to go diving before they hit the water more things to fail to do is not even slightly the solution to the problem of the OP.

And that exactly is where me being an experienced dive pro (as in someone who actually does this for a living, and has done this and nothing else for a iiving for a long time) comes in. Because yammering on about DIR/GUE or gas planning or whatever is not going to stop people from getting failing to ready to go diving before they get into the water. After all, the GUE OW video is just a bunch of bad ocean behaviors on entry and exits on display, most of which centered on the fact that no one in the video was ever shown preparing to get in the water. Not the instructor, not the assistants, not the students. ANd it showed in their utterly sloppy ocean behavior. (Behavior that would be dangerous in most ocean conditions, like, say the ocean conditions the OP was in) .

 

[gianlara]

Just thank God nothing happened. Just be careful next time, when you feel that your not sure ready with what you are doing think it many times.. I want to experience the underwater photography.

 

[danvolker]

ANd it showed in their utterly sloppy ocean behavior. (Behavior that would be dangerous in most ocean conditions, like, say the ocean conditions the OP was in) .

How about posting the link to this video you keep referring to. Even if it is the worst class ever passed by a GUE instructor, I have a hard time believing they are inferior to a typical mainstream agency class--and I would like to see this for myself....Having seen MANY fundies grads, and even those that did not pass but improved dramatically, the much higher level of GUE skills development does not jive with your story.

AND....As Errol K. is about to teach a GUE Rec 1 class in Lauderdale and Palm Beach, we are about to get a visual very different to what you describe. I know the GUE instructors are not allowed to share the videos of the classes ( the learning aids for the students seeing themselves performing horizontal trim, frog kick and back kick, etc)..On the other hand, if they do a class or two at the BHB and I happen to be diving and shooting video in the area, I may accidentally pick up some video of a GUE class

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Did you actually read the content of the first post, or just the thread title? I'll quote it here just so we all remember what the topic at hand is.



This was a failure of in water dive procedure, and inappropriate ocean behavior and had nothing to do with a failure of dive planning or gas planning or any of those rituals. Though it was a failure of dive preparation, (which see below)

---------- Post added July 7th, 2013 at 04:08 AM ----------



Are you trying to have a conversation here is Basic Scuba Discussions or just be snide? Because you started your post about gas planning (nothing to do with the OP), threw in some insults, and then talked about pre-dive safety checks, and then added some extraneous insults.

The problem is that gas planning (whatever that means to you) has nothing to do with the rest of your post, or the OP. Though I think a Pre-Dive safety check (that done properly takes about 15 seconds) is a good thing, it still has nothing to do with the problems in the OP. Getting ready to go diving does. That's what the OP failed to do, and that's what got him in trouble. It's the diver, not the equipment that failed on this dive.

He failed to get ready to go diving precisely not because he needs to do more unnecessary ritual before going diving. Giving someone who is not ready to go diving before they hit the water more things to fail to do is not even slightly the solution to the problem of the OP.

And that exactly is where me being an experienced dive pro (as in someone who actually does this for a living, and has done this and nothing else for a iiving for a long time) comes in. Because yammering on about DIR/GUE or gas planning or whatever is not going to stop people from getting failing to ready to go diving before they get into the water. After all, the GUE OW video is just a bunch of bad ocean behaviors on entry and exits on display, most of which centered on the fact that no one in the video was ever shown preparing to get in the water. Not the instructor, not the assistants, not the students. ANd it showed in their utterly sloppy ocean behavior. (Behavior that would be dangerous in most ocean conditions, like, say the ocean conditions the OP was in) .

You sure know how to poke the hornet's nest don't you?

I read your original post and agree with some of what you say.. well my interpretation of it anyway!

Gearing, checking your gear and breathing it before you splash is a decent idea so when you splash you are ready to descend and not bob on the surface stressing out. Spending too much time diving "in your head" instead of "diving in the water" isn't great either. Nothing prepares a diver for diving like diving.

New divers need to get the bottom time in by diving well within their comfort/skill level until the basic stuff comes naturally. IMHO more difficult/complex skills need to be added on a solid base.

It is vital that divers are honest with themselves and those they dive with about their competence. Yes divers are responsible for their own safety but sometimes in the beginning you need to rely on information from the locals to determine if the proposed dive is within your skill range. People talk about "trust me dives" but in the beginning until you build experience.. you have to trust someone else's information about what you are getting in to! Trusting their information still means you make the final decision for yourself and NEVER let someone pressure you into a dive or continuing a dive you don't feel right about.!

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Did you actually read the content of the first post, or just the thread title? I'll quote it here just so we all remember what the topic at hand is.



This was a failure of in water dive procedure, and inappropriate ocean behavior and had nothing to do with a failure of dive planning or gas planning or any of those rituals. Though it was a failure of dive preparation, (which see below)

Nope ... not even close.

The in-water dive behavior was an inevitable consequence of a learned attitude ... that of depending on a "dive professional" to be in charge of the diver's safety. The diver in this case knew when to turn the dive ... he simply chose not to. As a consequence, he put himself in a position where he only had options to choose from that ranged from uncomfortable to bad ... making an ascent he lacked the confidence (although probably had the in-water skill) to perform, or allowing himself and his wife to run out of air. And because of a continuing dependency on the "dive professional", he once again made the poorer of the two bad choices.

This has NOTHING to do with in-water procedure ... did you bother to read the OP? ... it has everything to do with the choices the diver made at critical points during the dive.

Incidents like this happen because "dive professionals" ... like you ... tell new divers that this sort of preparation is unnecessary ... just go jump in the water, flail around, and depend on "dive professionals" ... like you ... to take care of everything.

Pardon me if the credentials you keep bragging about yourself fail to impress ... from what I keep reading in your posts, all you're promoting is dependency. Let's just say that we have a fundamental disagreement about how to properly train divers ... mine don't do "ritual" ... they understand the reasons behind everything they learn. They don't learn dependency either ... one of the most fundamental things they learn is how to be responsible for their own safety. That's as much about avoiding the mentality that led to this incident as it is about any "in water procedure" that could have prevented it.

This incident wasn't about "in water procedure" ... it was about a dependent mentality. Even if a diver has the skills, until he learns to make his own decisions instead of relying on a "dive professional" to make them for him, he's going to put himself in a situation for bad things to happen.

... Bob (Grateful Diver

 

[flots am]

He failed to get ready to go diving precisely not because he needs to do more unnecessary ritual before going diving. Giving someone who is not ready to go diving before they hit the water more things to fail to do is not even slightly the solution to the problem of the OP.

Not running out of air on an OW dive requires nothing except knowing how much air it takes to get you back to the surface, keeping track of how much you have left, and having the confidence to ascend without the DM if necessary.

The first two are easy. The last one is hard for divers that have been trained to "follow the leader" since for many, an ascent without the group would be the very first scuba-authority-contradicting decision they've ever had to make.

Returning to the boat, returning to the up line, finding your buddy, catching up with the DM, sticking with the group, finding Nemo and anything else you can come up with are all irrelevant if you're running out of air on an OW dive.


flots

 

[Adobo]

He failed to get ready to go diving precisely not because he needs to do more unnecessary ritual before going diving. Giving someone who is not ready to go diving before they hit the water more things to fail to do is not even slightly the solution to the problem of the OP.

If I remember correctly, the guy is a physics teacher. I suspect he can handle a little bit of 'mafs'. Are you telling me that he can't do some addition or subtraction?

After all, the GUE OW video is just a bunch of bad ocean behaviors on entry and exits on display, most of which centered on the fact that no one in the video was ever shown preparing to get in the water. Not the instructor, not the assistants, not the students. ANd it showed in their utterly sloppy ocean behavior. (Behavior that would be dangerous in most ocean conditions, like, say the ocean conditions the OP was in) .

I have no idea what video you are talking about and I have no idea what it has to do with me.

What I was yammering about was SSI gear checks. SSI open water taught me that before I get into the water, I am supposed to breath my regs (and so is my buddy). I am supposed to check my BC, my weight system, my exposure suit.. all for proper function. If you have a problem with divers getting themselves ready for a dive by confirming all of their gear is in proper working order, you should take that up with SSI. And PADI. And NAUI. And SDI. And perhaps even GUE or UTD though I suspect that they don't teach very many open water classes if any at all.

BTW, I first learned about gas planning from a NAUI instructor. And I don't know what agency flots am teaches for but somehow, even that person realizes that the very first step to not running out of gas is knowing how much you need to get to the surface (considering all the other things that must happen between the time you call the dive and the time you get to the surface).

Out of curiosity, how do you teach your students when its time to turn around and head back for the anchor line? What do you teach them so that they begin their ascent with sufficient gas to get to the surface? What pressure is his turn-around gas if he is diving an aluminum 80? At what point, should he begin his ascent?
What about if he is diving a LP72? What about if he is diving a HP100?

And that exactly is where me being an experienced dive pro (as in someone who actually does this for a living, and has done this and nothing else for a iiving for a long time) comes in. Because yammering on about DIR/GUE or gas planning or whatever is not going to stop people from getting failing to ready to go diving before they get into the water.

I see pros all the time. I hired a bunch to remodel my house. Would you agree that not all pros are created equally and some of them just suck at what they do?

 

[billt4sf]

Hey..OP here. I'm in Bonaire and not going to take time to read thru the argument.

I do wish to say that typical classes I have taken and most vacation dive ops do promote a "follow me" mentality which breeds dependence and we are having a hard time breaking it. Got to get into a "responsible for ourselves and can evaluate what we're getting into" mentality.

My opinion.

Bill

P.S. yes I am a physics teacher and love to do those double integrals underwater! lol

 

[Adobo]

Hey..OP here. I'm in Bonaire and not going to take time to read thru the argument.

I do wish to say that typical classes I have taken and most vacation dive ops do promote a "follow me" mentality which breeds dependence and we are having a hard time breaking it. Got to get into a "responsible for ourselves and can evaluate what we're getting into" mentality.

My opinion.

Bill

P.S. yes I am a physics teacher and love to do those double integrals underwater! lol

If your car gets 20 mpg and your fuel gauge says you have a quarter of your car's 15 gallon tank left, are you able to figure out how far you will get before you run out of gas?

If you see a sign that says, "next exit is last gas station for 100 miles", will you know what to do?

What about if a dive pro is in the back seat telling that these math exercises are unecessary rituals and are counter-productive to travelling from San Francisco to Yosemite (and not running out of gas), would you stop doing them?

Somehow I have a lot of faith in the intelligence of average people (never mind a physics teacher) not to "fail" solving this problem even while they are half asleep.

 

[uncfnp]

Hey..OP here. I'm in Bonaire and not going to take time to read thru the argument.

I do wish to say that typical classes I have taken and most vacation dive ops do promote a "follow me" mentality which breeds dependence and we are having a hard time breaking it. Got to get into a "responsible for ourselves and can evaluate what we're getting into" mentality.

My opinion.

Bill

P.S. yes I am a physics teacher and love to do those double integrals underwater! lol

Hi Bill,

So I assume that you are shore diving and leading your own dives. How's it going? Should be plenty of opportunity to practice free ascents there.