In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Scott L]

To me, this rip off of "Survivor on diving" comletely misses the point of diving.
It takes away from diving by adding nonsense to it---it's like someone who is trying to make Snow skiing more fun, by playing catch with a football as you fly down a double diamond run. This ruins the zen and the sport of both skiing AND footbal.

I think Sea Hunt and Cousteu put alot of us in the water back in the late 60's and throughout the 70's...James Bond films did not hurt either, to continue carrying the "adventure" aspect of diving, and to keep the idea of diving in front of a large audience. But the real issue here is that diving begain as "an Adventure Sport", for adventurers...it was NOT a sport for everyone on your block, or in your neighborhood. With the advent of DEMA, and the massive ad machinery used by the the collective, by 2000 we had dive shops on almost every corner,in parts of south Florida ( ok, slight exageration).
Many people got into diving, that should never have been divers--it was not their sport--they did not really enjoy it, they were terrible at it, and there was no one around to really help them to enjoy it...But, there were plenty around to help them spend more money on more diving or gear.

Now with a looming global depression, the middle class is shrinking, and the spending habits and leisure activities are changing. The dive store on every corner we once had, is about to become a moment of history--it is over for them now.

Who will do well? Those who were lucky or smart enough to have built their dive shops in areas with a very high concentration of real divers ( sorry, Retail site Potential Studies won't help much with this).

After the massive shrinking of dive market, there will still be "Adventure Divers", and there will still be some dive shops left. My guess, is that Charter Boat businesses that maintain a good Rental Gear inventory, could do well selling 6 month to 1 year old rental gear to their divers---their divers get to decide if they lke certain gear, and the shop makes out on the rental--covering the price of their inventory, and then gets to sell it long before it is old, at prices that will destroy brand new Internet gear sales. Wetsuits begin this "evolution", then regulator and computer rentals, then fins , and then anything their divers express an interest in....Demo first by rental, then buy later.
There are too many charter boats right now, but charter boats are the key--they can't be replaced by Internet sales, and they are the real heart of the dive industry..they have instructors of their own, they can run trips outside their local areas--they can offer the adventure diver of old, pretty much everything the want or need in diving....with no bad blood about high costs or having crappy gear pushed on people.

If you want an example of an ideal dive operation, look at Jim Abernethy's Scuba Adventures...While I don't think Jim does the "rental to later sell" idea I mentioned, he certainly could do this if he wanted. And, if he did, there would be ZERO reason for a DIVER to ever visit another dive operation--unless they wanted to dive at some destination Jim does not go to.

Some keys to Jim's success:
* He is as excited about diving today as he was 25 years ago--and you feel it...this in contrast to many dive operators where it is "hurry up, get on the boat---then, hurry up, get off the boat..".. in other words, many have lost the spark, at it is just a business they no longer enjoy.
* Jim does not usually run his own boats, but instead plays "Johnny Carson on the water", and entertains his divers...and takes them on awesome dives, SHARING his enjoyment and skill at finding adventure on every dive...THIS IS WHAT DIVERS WILL PAY FOR!!!

Bottom Line...A shop without a boat does not offer enough. The Internet is going to kill it. The Internet can not kill the boat.
Also, there are too many NEVER-EVERS in diving, thanks to PADI and NAUI and DEMA, and all their friends. Creating "survival competitions" for people who wish they could win at something, is not going to help diving--it is going to help the niche of generation Xers that need mediocre competitions in order to feel good about themselves. The market for diving is going to shrink. Plan for this, and the real values, located in the right places, will flourish in the long run.

Regards,
Dan Volker

Great post. I would also offer that Jupiter Dive Center has an extremely good business model and seems to be flourishing. Well stocked shop with top brands, friendly service and two sizable dive boats. Of course it also helps that the dive boats are docked 20 ft from the shop and the owner is a former CPA and Jupiter diving is amoung the nation's best. Scott

 

[Scott L]

A major part of the reason us crotchety old guys look at the young guys is not age, it is maturity. I don't know either one of you guys, but by your avatar, Dale is my age, and Slonda is my age back when I was alot younger. Guys my age that have been diving for a while have seen someone die while diving, or know of someone who dies while diving, or have read about those "here, hold my beer and watch this!" moments while someone dies diving. The young guys are bulletproof, it can't happen to them, and they can dive to 300 feet on air and come back every time. You know what? You can dive to 300 feet on air, and you can come back most of the time, too.

Some of us have been scared to death by the crap we've pulled, and we're pretty happy to be alive. When we discover that there is a method to do the things we want to do safely, or with a higher level of safety, We're pretty happy. A lot of the young guys are starting familiess, or have other pressing needs for their bucks, and so may not be able to afford those safety items I'm talking about. Like helium, or training, or a rebreather, or whatever it is. Quite frankly, I've come full circle. I like looking at the pretty fishes in 30 feet of water on a coral reef. The video camera stays on the boat, the still camera does too. I dive enough in 300 feet of water to keep my skills up, but when you add $700 worth of helium to a $2000 trip, some of the younger guys are tempted to go find a 300 foot deep mine and dive it on air.

When we hear talk of competitive diving from a youngster, we wince a little bit and say "here we go again" Competition to me is to be the first diver (ever) on a wreck, or the first diver to see a goliath grouper on a divesite, or to help a diver understand buoyancy (instructors know, when the light comes on). It's not sexy, it's not like summiting, but it's still really really cool. For me, anyway.

Frank

Diving USN tables, ascending 60ft per minute with no safety stops, drifting in highly trafficked waters with no SMB. Anchor diving in the Bahamas with long surface swims back to the boat. Certified in 1983. Yep, lucky to be here.

 

[Slonda828]

A major part of the reason us crotchety old guys look at the young guys is not age, it is maturity. I don't know either one of you guys, but by your avatar, Dale is my age, and Slonda is my age back when I was alot younger. Guys my age that have been diving for a while have seen someone die while diving, or know of someone who dies while diving, or have read about those "here, hold my beer and watch this!" moments while someone dies diving. The young guys are bulletproof, it can't happen to them, and they can dive to 300 feet on air and come back every time. You know what? You can dive to 300 feet on air, and you can come back most of the time, too.

Some of us have been scared to death by the crap we've pulled, and we're pretty happy to be alive. When we discover that there is a method to do the things we want to do safely, or with a higher level of safety, We're pretty happy. A lot of the young guys are starting familiess, or have other pressing needs for their bucks, and so may not be able to afford those safety items I'm talking about. Like helium, or training, or a rebreather, or whatever it is. Quite frankly, I've come full circle. I like looking at the pretty fishes in 30 feet of water on a coral reef. The video camera stays on the boat, the still camera does too. I dive enough in 300 feet of water to keep my skills up, but when you add $700 worth of helium to a $2000 trip, some of the younger guys are tempted to go find a 300 foot deep mine and dive it on air.

When we hear talk of competitive diving from a youngster, we wince a little bit and say "here we go again" Competition to me is to be the first diver (ever) on a wreck, or the first diver to see a goliath grouper on a divesite, or to help a diver understand buoyancy (instructors know, when the light comes on). It's not sexy, it's not like summiting, but it's still really really cool. For me, anyway.

Frank

Some of us are also, quite frankly, not stupid. There are divers and there are divers. You can read The Silent World or Basic Scuba and realize that diving deep on air is dumb. Both Fred Roberts and JYC almost died diving deep on air several times, and documented as much in their works. I think a lot of people should realize that younger people today are more educated and more responsible than ever before. By this point in my life I already have 8 years of college and over 24 months months of time in foreign countries where people did not welcome me with open arms under my belt. I am not an idiot, or I would not be here to type this. If you think some of the things that you have seen in the pursuit of your hobby are scary, you should see some of the things that many of the people from my generation have seen in the pursuit of their jobs. I know that I am not bulletproof, and I have seen my share of people die in ways that make drowning or getting bent something that you would smile and pray for. I do not need 1,000 dives to know to not do dumb things. I didn't do dumb things diving when I was new, I just had crappy buoyancy and a jacket BC. I think the people who think people like me would be more mature if they had 800 more dives should understand that most of us are pretty mature by society's standards outside of diving. Smart people are smart people. I bet the guy who dives ratty, non-maintained gear that looks like it is from the Magnum PI era probably also rides a motorcycle without a helmet and does not wear a seatbelt. Being young does not make me reckless. I don't rock climb without protection, hell I don't even ride a bicycle without a helmet. The funny part is, I don't look down my nose at many of the older people who have worked in offices all their lives who are so passionate about diving because it is the exciting thing that they do in their free time, I applaud them. I guess I just wish maybe it worked in reverse. I don't need pity from anyone, but sometimes a little respect would go a long way.

 

[simmonsjr]

We need to face the facts. Until Manufacturers reduce their prices to retailers in the same manner they have to the internet sellers, the industry will continue to crash and burn. With less visible dive shops, the industry will continue to shrink. In order for the industry to grow, for training agencies, retailers, manufacturers, and the sport as a whole to flourish, it must be in the public eye. Less dive shops will crush this industry, even with the advent of online training.

One thing that kind of derails your argument is that this same phenomenon of being able to purchase goods less expensively online versus brick-and-mortar stores is not contained exclusively within the dive community.

The reality is that just about anything that you might care to by in this day and age is available for cheaper via the internet, in fact even retailers that maintain traditional as well as internet stores often offer the same exact product for less online. So less expensive online competition cannot, in-and-of-itself, be the sole reason for all of the scuba industry's woes. That is scapegoat thinking and isn't going to help anyone at all.

I live in Denver Colorado and one thing that we do not suffer from is a lack of LDSs. In fact I was surprised at just how many there are considering that we are just about as far away from the ocean as you can get stateside. So I don't think that lack of local opportunities is necessarily at the heart of the problem either. The shops are already in place to service a large increase in diving clientele, but that increase is not currently forthcoming, so there must be some other factor(s) that is contributing.

I worry that your reductionist thinking will only make matters worse by simplifying a very complex problem and presenting it in a linear fashion. I agree that putting diving in the public eye in a favorable light is a good first step, but there is much more to it than the traditional vs online retailer debate that you are making of it.

I do, however, commend you for raising the issue; the free exchange of ideas most often leads to the best solutions.

Jason

 

[DaleC]

Again, a lot of people are looking at my suggestions from their feelings and not from a strict business sense. They are also extrapolating their experience onto a new model. I could spend twenty years trying to explain it but you just have to study how competetive sport climbing developed. Which climbing shop or manufacturer wouldn't want a piece of that market? At the onset traditional climbers complained and saw no purpose either because they related to it from their POV. The sport climbers had their own POV.

The truth is competitive diving would not grow out of the current market place. Current divers did not enter diving with that motivation. It would come from a whole different type of diver. One that the current diver wouldn't recognise. If your current customer base is dwindling do you keep looking at the dwindling customer base or a new market you did not previously recognise?

I'm not saying I want to be a competitive diver - just that a well thoughtout strategy could produce a whole new segment of consumers for the market place. Something I thought this thread was about. If the concept is so far out explain to me sponsored competitive double dutch skip rope competitions and televised Scripps national spelling Bees.

Anyone wanting to do serious research on the subject should go to the local swimming pool. Gather a group of kids and throw something to the bottom of the pool. Watch. Make it interesting enough or offer a reward and they will spend hours trying to retrieve it. The rest is just details.

 

[Ana]

A major part of the reason us crotchety old guys look at the young guys is not age, it is maturity. I don't know either one of you guys, but by your avatar, Dale is my age, and Slonda is my age back when I was alot younger. Guys my age that have been diving for a while have seen someone die while diving, or know of someone who dies while diving, or have read about those "here, hold my beer and watch this!" moments while someone dies diving. The young guys are bulletproof, it can't happen to them, and they can dive to 300 feet on air and come back every time. You know what? You can dive to 300 feet on air, and you can come back most of the time, too.

I'm in the crotchety group but can't totally agree with this.

Many years ago when my kids were kids I realized how different was the world for them than it was for me. By the time my oldest son turn 16 he had gone to a bunch of friend's funerals (maybe the byproduct of growing up in Ft. Lauderdale), until my late 20's the only person I knew that die was my grandmother.
He's now 27, a fish in the water when it comes to diving but only because he learn to swim before learning to walk, diving for him is just something he does with "the parents". Involved with the military and law enforcement, his magic is in bike racing and other more intense activities. But he's by no means reckless, if anything I wonder to myself if I would go through all the safety steps he goes if I was in his shoes.
Many young adults get dismissed as reckless punks, specially when involved with the military. Daredevil and bulletproof is often used when describing them. Let's not bundle all of them up in the same bag. Yes, they are mostly punks but a great many are very responsible punks that have seen already more than any person should see in a lifetime.
Allow them to dive their dives, even if their plans don't fit the idea of safety based in our crotchety long experience. Besides, if the operators are catering to them, maybe the old farts like me can be left alone to do our own slow-long-lasting dives.

Talking about the "point of diving" is tricky. For some people diving is a sport, for others is an activity. For me it has changed through the years from a way to make a living to a way of applying "ctrl-Alt-Delete" to my physical and mental system.
I don't watch survivor so I can't say if that thing that Wookie posted is like that or not, but I know there is a truckload of people that watches it. So what if some divers like competition? how long are we going to dictate how things shuld be done to others? How about providing a service (instruction / maintenance) and a product (gear / gas fills) and letting the customer use that service and product as they "each" see fit.
Diver's are wrong if they go solo, wrong if they want to go deep (or for too long, or too far), wrong if they want to compete, wrong if they miss a piece of gear, wrong if they have too much gear. And we wonder why the diving industry is in trouble?

I don't know about that LDS of the future, but for starters I get pissy if I walk in to a store and they ask my name. I don't care what is their name and they don't need to know mine, if I make a purchase in cash still don't need my data. No everyone goes to a store to find or make friends. Just treat me with respect and price your items correctly.
Maybe not the LDS of the future but I believe an example of the "Perfect LDS" is Fill Express in Pompano, FL. State of the art fill station, you get exactly what you ask for with no superfluous chit chat, certainly with no meddling in your business, if you need more they have way more, but never they try to talk you into anything. Unlike the stores in Panama City that are oh soooooo friendly but you have to jump many hoops to get more than 33%.

Good luck solving the issues with the "diving industry"

 

[RJP]

The truth is competitive diving would not grow out of the current market place. Current divers did not enter diving with that motivation. It would come from a whole different type of diver. One that the current diver wouldn't recognise. If your current customer base is dwindling do you keep looking at the dwindling customer base or a new market you did not previously recognise?

"Outside the box" thinking is great. You just need to be careful that you once you've jumped out of one box...that you haven't simply landed in another.

Too many marketers (and would-be marketers) use what's called "self-reference criteria" and assume they "are their customer" and that they already know the answer and then seek to support it.

The way to go from a marketing standpoint is to start with a blank sheet of paper, no pre-conceived ideas, assume nothing, and talk to potential customers to find out what their motivators and barriers are.

First round of market research I wouldn't even talk about scuba diving. I want to know what are their aspirations, hopes and dreams, fears? Armed with that you can determine where the largest, most easily motivatable audience is, and what will motivate THEM. Then - and ONLY THEN - do you begin to determine what the product positioning is.

In every case I've ever worked on this approach has turned out to present a much larger, much more profitable target audience and messaging that the preconceived notion of "who the target is and why" that was held at the beginning of the assigment.

You need to let the CUSTOMER tell you what THEY want your product to be. If you decide up front, and then seek to tell THEM what your product offering is, there are only two possible outcomes:

1. You will fail.
2. You will be less succesful than you could have been.

In terms of absolute dollars, outcome #2 is far worse. Folks who fail tend to lose tens of thousands of dollars. Folks who end up being less succesful than they could have been tend to leave MILLIONS on the table...and never even know it.

 

[RJP]

Anyone wanting to do serious research on the subject should go to the local swimming pool. Gather a group of kids and throw something to the bottom of the pool. Watch. Make it interesting enough or offer a reward and they will spend hours trying to retrieve it. The rest is just details.

For an even more interesting take on the applicability of your "focus group" see what happens to their interest in "competitive diving" when the Good Humor man pulls up and rings his bell.

 

[Scott L]

For an even more interesting take on the applicability of your "focus group" see what happens to their interest in "competitive diving" when the Good Humor man pulls up and rings his bell.

If we are down to underwater games at the local YMCA's as the best idea for industry growth that is my signal to quickly sell-off uneeded gear. A few of these pools scattered around the country might see some new diver growth and we won't have adolescents over breathing their regs passing out from CO2 build-up.

The Worlds deepest indoor pool (Nemo 33)

 

[Slonda828]

Diver's are wrong if they go solo, wrong if they want to go deep (or for too long, or too far), wrong if they want to compete, wrong if they miss a piece of gear, wrong if they have too much gear. And we wonder why the diving industry is in trouble?

I can't really wrap my head around that one either. I could care less how everyone else wants to dive, but there are tons of people that tell me my vintage gear is dangerous, that not diving with an octo will kill me, that the aluminum 80 is the worst thing since the Edsel and that diving without a BC is tantamount to suicide.Let's not even get into the fin debate. It's odd how I have done more dangerous sports with less admonition, it makes me wonder where that mentality of "you have to do it this way" comes from in diving. I dove Disney the other week, and there you have to use their gear, the only thing you can bring is a mask. I dove some kind of Scubapro jacket BC, split fins, and a regulator with only one second stage. Who cares, it wasn't my gear but it all worked. My trim and whatnot was fine. The splits were a little goofy for heli turns and frog kicks, but I managed. I watched the DVD later to see if I looked terrible, and lo and behold I looked exactly the same way that I always do, horizontal and in the free fall position. Apparently most of that stuff just doesn't really matter when it comes down to it. I had a blast diving that aquarium, and my money went to conservation efforts.

Maybe more people should worry about having a good time and less about what the guy/girl next to them is doing. I think that should feed into opening more avenues up for diving. Maybe minimalism, vintage, or competitive diving isn't for everyone. If it keeps the sport alive and keeps it growing though, that is awesome. To borrow some of what Dale said, if not for sport climbing, I would have never started rock climbing. It is heresy to traditional climbers, but it got me into a sport that I was initially too terrified to attempt. That's important.