Inconsistent message to new divers

[kdsmithjr]

I've been a diver for a little over a year and I have about 125 dives worth of experience. I'm well educated and a retired educator (higher ed.), so I think I am at least a little qualified to chime in here.
I don't see a lot of confusion and/or inconsistency the the two positions here that are put forth as almost polar, i.e., you need to be in one corner or the other. I think that any new diver, from dive number 2 on up, needs to be primarily responsible for themselves (with the obvious being that there is a lot that they don't know that could hurt them). Realistically, only the diver him or herself has an accurate view of what is going on both inside and outside the diver, so self awareness and responsibility are critical. On the other hand, it's important to realize that possesion of any card/license from any of the certifying agencies does not mean you know everything that is possible to know. It just means you've met the certifying agency's requirements. Still, people who are "newbie-er" than someone with higher certs, who has been put in some level of responsibility for them, should take the basic position that you will "follow the leader."

 

[Bob DBF]

I love this post! To me, I think the problem is deeper. I think we have a real issue turning out divers who are not equiped to do much but very basic skills and are being told they should have the ability to plan and execute a dive?

RSTC minimum course content for Open Water Diver Certification

Open water certification qualifies a certified diver to procure air, equipment, and other services and engage in recreational open water diving without supervision. It is the intent of this standard that certified open water divers shall have received training in the fundamentals of recreational diving from an instructor (see definition). A certified open water diver is qualified to apply the knowledge and skills outlined in this standard to plan, conduct, and log open-water, no-required decompression dives when properly equipped, and accompanied by another certified diver.

PADI, SSI, and others are menbers of the RSTC and agree to uphold these standards.
The whole booklet is at the link.

Anyone may feel free to come to their own conclusion.




Bob
------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Cosmographer]

Simple... Don't make any dive you think you need a DM to execute safely. Watch the pool empty!
Seriously, new divers need to assume responsibility for their own welfare AND recognize that their self preservation abilities are limited THEREBY making dives within their own abilities.

Agreed. The only problem is, new divers usually do not know their own abilities (I speak only from personal experiences, however).

In your response post you say that you never stated that newbies should be their trust in their DM, I'm not really sure how else to read "They SHOULD be "trust me" dives unless the new diver is far more knowledgeable than average." We can argue semantics all night but I really did get the impression from the OP that you were saying like it or not, we can't expect newbies not to trust DM's and Instructors and in fact they should bc they don't have the judgement to know any better. That doesn't necessarily seem to be how you feel based on follow up posts but it's how I read the OP.

Yes, I can see how you might interpret my OP in that way. However, as you quoted, I believe new divers should rely on DMs unless they "are far more knowledgeable than average." To me, this means that while "trust me" dives are bad, they should be expected based on the relatively low bar that OW imposes upon new divers. The best option would be to improve the level of training and education received by new divers, but barring that, "trust me" dives are, I'm afraid, the defacto standard for new divers. (Obviously, this does not apply to those who have received excellent training as described by some of the instructors who have chimed in so far). I'm not sure why you would think I'd my change my mind based on follow-up posts though - I agree with almost all of them.

I think we may be moving on to a tangential topic ("trust me" dives), but that's ok too. But as for my OP, it was written from my perspective and that of the few OW students whom I know. While the sample size is tiny, like most people, I assume rightly or wrongly that my experiences are reflective of the majority. It is very gratifying to see that some instructors take their jobs seriously. Unfortunately, my OW instructor provided training that does not live up to the standards expressed in this thread, and I assume that the majority of OW training is conducted in such a substandard way. Perhaps I was just unlucky, but I doubt it. Never once did my instructor bring up the issue of "trust me" dives nor issue any warnings about diving beyond our comfort level.

On another perhaps more controversial tangent, I think the whole "don't dive beyond your comfort level" line that is touted so often is mostly BS. For experienced divers, I can see how this would apply. But for new divers, just about EVERYTHING is beyond our comfort level. Example of things that were beyond our comfort level and made us nervous: diving, diving deeper than 12m, diving deeper than 18m, mask removal, diving without an instructor, diving without a personal DM, diving with big fish, diving near rocks, diving in a surge, etc...

Anyway, as I mentioned, that's a whole 'nother topic.

 

[supergaijin]

It does need to be stressed that all divers are ultimately responsible for themselves underwater, but it also needs to be said that many operations are allowing divers to dive on sites which are beyond their ability, and putting the responsibility directly on the shoulders of guides who cannot afford to say no.

Take Sharm el Sheikh for example- especially Tiran's Jackson and Thomas Reefs and Ras Mo's Sharks and Yolanda. Currents in these areas are regularly strong with associated downcurrents/upcurrents and washing machines and yet they are some of the most crowded sites in the whole of Sharm. I even saw DSD's being done at Sharks/Yolanda.

The problem is that divers of all abilities are expecting to dive these sites as they offer the best stuff (in regards to action/pelagics etc) and the DC's are willing to take them lest they lose their customers to the DC next door. Divers need to be educated and have a clear idea of what they are capable of (and not capable of), and some hard truths need to be said out loud, but too many operators are unwilling to take the chance to say 'no'.

 

[Quero]

Thanks, Cosmo, for bringing your views to the Board for discussion. I have to say, however, that I find your words troubling because you seem to equate 'taking responsibility' with disobedience, arguments, and confrontation as the only alternatives to trusting a dive pro to make decisions on your behalf.

...it is unrealistic and even to some degree elitist to expect new divers to ignore or disobey their DM/Instructor.
...
To expect a newbie with maybe 10-20 dives to argue about protocol and safety with a DM who has thousands of dives at that location is ludicrous. NOTE: I'm not saying that a newbie disagreeing with the DM is ludicrous - I'm saying it is ludicrous to EXPECT a newbie to have the courage, stubbornness, or confidence to do so.
...
I do believe that it's good for new divers to confront DMs and dive ops who do not follow protocol.

I don't think those are the only ways to proceed; I believe that taking responsibility should be equated with gathering information (very often from the dive pro) and making a decision for yourself as a diver. If you feel, after gathering information, that the dive that is proposed is outside your personal comfort zone or beyond your training, you can simply and politely state as much. If you are trained, for example, to dive to 60 feet and the dive proposed goes to 75 feet, you might point this out and ask for clarification. Maybe the DM will say that the conditions are very benign and that it's an easy dive. With this additional information, you can choose whether to go ahead with the dive or not to. It's still your choice, and it has nothing whatever to do with disobedience, argument, confrontation, or disagreement.

We can clearly see how a confrontational exchange results in a different experience than does polite and respectful dialogue through two different stories told in this thread:

<snip> While starting our check, the DM (actually an instructor but acting as the Dive Leader) made what he thought was a funny joke about us doing a pre-dive gear check (while no one else was doing one). I blew up at the DM and told him that Safety was no laughing matter and that he should be ashamed of himself for attempting to get people NOT to do a gear check. I was livid (and this didn't help me during the dive) and was still mad at the end of the dive when the DM tried to tell me (again) it was "just a joke."

<snip>I just very politely told the DM before we left the dock that my wife and I would site this one out on shore (surface intervals were taken on shore so not a problem for the dive operation to pick us up for dive two). I did not expect the dive operation to change to another site, nor did I ask for a refund. Several other people on the boat said the same thing. Again a conversation held with respect and no demands from anyone. The dive operation simply choose to change the site of the first dive.

To sum up, Cosmo, I think your premise is wrong. You posit behaviors that are polar--either confrontation or acceptance of "trust me" dives--neither of these is productive to responsible decision-making by the diver, in my opinion.

I think kingpatzer's entire post is worthy of becoming 'required reading,' but his opening paragraph encapsulates it well (emphasis mine):

Something I emphasize to my students over and over again in class and pool is that they have a responsibility to themselves to say "I am not comfortable with this dive" and call any dive, for any reason, if they are not 100% certain that it is within their training and experience. I stress that they will find themselves in situations where DM's and dive operators will ask them to do things that are outside of their certification and experience level.

In view of your opening and follow up posts here Cosmo, along with the affirmation by others that they also behaved in this same way on their early dives, I plan to make a small but important addition to my own Open Water course in that when my new divers sign the Student Statement* on their training record, I will spend a little extra time discussing the notion of responsibility as I've outlined it above and to emphasize the point even more throughout the course, for example when discussing dive planning, to ensure that I'm driving the message home.

*[This reads, in part: I am adequately prepared to dive in areas and under conditions similar to those in which I was trained. I realize that additional training is recommended for participation in specialty diving activities, in other geographical areas, and after periods of inactivity.... ]

 

[supergaijin]

I plan to make a small but important addition to my own Open Water course in that when my new divers sign the Student Statement* on their training record, I will spend a little extra time discussing the notion of responsibility as I've outlined it above and to emphasize the point even more throughout the course, for example when discussing dive planning, to ensure that I'm driving the message home.

*[This reads, in part: I am adequately prepared to dive in areas and under conditions similar to those in which I was trained. I realize that additional training is recommended for participation in specialty diving activities, in other geographical areas, and after periods of inactivity.... ]

I wholeheartedly agree.

Furthermore the

Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding​

is important and often ill-explained. One problem is that it required to be signed before the course begins. (PADI General Standards and Procedures> Paperwork and Administrative Procedures> Documentation)

I do go through this statement with them and I do expand on what it is saying but I always get caught up on certain parts...
I question how one can meaningfully explain things like:
Part 6- Be proficient in Dive Planning.... before even getting wet for the first time.

I will try to get students to re-sign this document during their final certification process.

***Quero pointed out that I mis-read

Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding and the Student Statement. I have changed the post accordingly.​

 

[Quero]

supergaijin, maybe you're confusing the Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding and the Student Statement? The Safe Diving Practices one has to be read and signed at the outset, but the Student Statement is signed at the end of the course, together with the instructor's signature, affirming satisfactory completion of the course requirements. It's contained both in the Open Water Course Record and Referral Form (training record pages) of the logbook as well as on the Student Record File folder.

 

[Cosmographer]

Hi Quero, I think your Student Statement and emphasis on personal responsibility is a great idea. As far as me indicating that a disagreement with a DM's proposed dive plan is the equivalent of disobedience or confrontation, you are correct. That's exactly what I was trying to get across. Yes, there are many ways to resolve disagreements politely and professionally. But let's take into account 2 factors: 1) You've got a noobie second-guessing an "expert". 2) The dive industry is home to some huge egos. You combine these 2 factors and you create an environment where many if not most noobies would hesitate to challenge their DM due to fears of confrontation and ridicule. This is unfortunate, but understandable and on the noobie's part, justifiable unless they've been taught better.

Somewhere around dive #25, I gained enough confidence in my dive skills and knowledge to challenge a local DM who happened to be an instructor as well. He was giving my wife some bad advice about weighting and trim. He quickly acquiesced with a "well, whatever you think is best - I'm just here to help you guys have a good time" attitude. The DM was a very nice and humble guy, and I wouldn't hesitate to dive with him again. But would I have similarly challenged a hotshot DM full of confidence and machismo? Well, in all honesty, I probably would have because I'm just that kind of guy, but I think most normal people would not.

PS. Hey Quero, my brother and I will be in Phuket in about a week, and he's considering taking up diving. You offer any discounts to SB members?

 

[Quero]

Hi Quero, I think your Student Statement and emphasis on personal responsibility is a great idea. As far as me indicating that a disagreement with a DM's proposed dive plan is the equivalent of disobedience or confrontation, you are correct. That's exactly what I was trying to get across. Yes, there are many ways to resolve disagreements politely and professionally. But let's take into account 2 factors: 1) You've got a noobie second-guessing an "expert".

I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I don't believe this needs to be the case. It's not a matter of "second guessing." It's a matter of asking questions, getting information, and making a decision that is yours, and yours alone, to make. There is not a DM on the planet that will force a diver to do a dive the diver declines to do. The diver simply stays on the boat or on the beach or whatever. So he loses a little money--so what? He's taken responsibility for his own decision to dive or not to dive. Example: I had a DSD the other day, a young woman who did just fine in the pool but would not get into the ocean the next day. Her mom went in, her friends went in, but she wouldn't go. That was the first dive of a two-dive day. Then they all got back on the boat feeling pleased with themselves, talking about what they saw, how much fun it was.... so she decided to go for the second dive. Geared up, giant stride, in the water--and within minutes there I was escorting her back to the "safety" of the boat where she waited for us to return. She wasn't even certified, for goodness sake, and yet she felt perfectly empowered to refuse to dive even though I was convinced that she was capable of it. She took responsibility, expressed her discomfort; end of story. I simply fail to see how this is such a difficult thing to do.

2) The dive industry is home to some huge egos. You combine these 2 factors and you create an environment where many if not most noobies would hesitate to challenge their DM due to fears of confrontation and ridicule. This is unfortunate, but understandable and on the noobie's part, justifiable unless they've been taught better.

There's that word challenge again! You are simply approaching this from an unproductive angle. I would advise you to rethink your attitude towards declining a dive and find ways that are non-confrontational to express your misgivings about any proposed dive profile or plan that you are not comfortable with. There are almost always work-arounds, and the DM is more than likely ready to propose one or more of these to keep you within your comfort zone. I've had a number of divers here who want me to guarantee that the dive guide will not take them to {whatever} depth. If this is a real need on the part of the divers in question, I simply hire an extra dive guide and everybody's happy--the ones who want to stay shallow stay shallow and they don't hold back the ones who want to go deeper from doing so.

Somewhere around dive #25, I gained enough confidence in my dive skills and knowledge to challenge a local DM who happened to be an instructor as well. He was giving my wife some bad advice about weighting and trim. He quickly acquiesced with a "well, whatever you think is best - I'm just here to help you guys have a good time" attitude. The DM was a very nice and humble guy, and I wouldn't hesitate to dive with him again. But would I have similarly challenged a hotshot DM full of confidence and machismo? Well, in all honesty, I probably would have because I'm just that kind of guy, but I think most normal people would not.

And there it is once more, challenged. Why couldn't you have simply discussed the issue? Why does it seem to you to be some kind of competition, some clash of wills?

PS. Hey Quero, my brother and I will be in Phuket in about a week, and he's considering taking up diving. You offer any discounts to SB members?

This is a topic for a PM. Write to me and we'll see if we can work something out.

 

[Cosmographer]

Hi Quero, I think there are 2 separate issues here: 1) Whether disagreeing with the DM is "challenging" him and 2) The validity of a noobie's "comfort level". You addressed the former, so let me respond to that:

I think you are approaching this from an unusual perspective: that of a DM/Instructor who respects her students, isn't buoyed by a big ego, and does not intimidate her students. I'm extrapolating this from the attitude displayed by your DSD diver. Your entire attitude towards divers not doing a dive with which they are uncomfortable demonstrates this as well. However, you need to realize that many (dare I say most?) instructors are not that open-minded and approachable. To paraphrase you (and correct me if I'm wrong): If a diver is uncomfortable with a dive, then just discuss that with the DM and work out an alternative - what's the big deal? Unfortunately, people are usually not that open-minded or flexible.

Let me give you an example of an exchange I witnessed between a new diver and his instructor (again paraphrasing):
New Diver: The water looks kind of rough. Should we really be diving so close to the cliffs?
Instructor: Yes, it's not a problem.
New Diver: But wouldn't the waves crash us into the rocks?
Instructor: It's not as bad as it looks. It's calmer below the surface.
New Diver: Are you sure?
Instructor: Yes, I dive this site all the time.
New Diver: Ok.

At this point, the new diver acquiesced. Had he continued to object, I believe the instructor would have become indignant and impatient. Had the new diver then refused to dive or requested a different site, there is no question in my mind that this would be taken as a direct challenge to the instructor's competence, experience, and trustworthiness. When you approach someone with more experience than you on an issue and disagree on his proposed course of action, that is a challenge or a clash of wills by definition. Whether the challenge/clash is handled diplomatically and in a friendly and productive manner is dependent on 1) the experienced person's response and 2) the manner in which the challenge is issued by the noobie. I suspect that your experiences are the result of students who perceive that you will receive their concerns and challenges in a gracious, understanding manner with a problem-solving attitude. I do not believe this represents the majority of instructors out there (just from personal observation).

If the new diver perceives that the instructor will respond to the challenge unfavorably, it is my contention that you cannot blame the new diver for backing down unless the issue from which the misgiving is arising is a blatant one such as a clear violation of safety protocol.

One final note: let me be clear and say that I personally do not view this as a sort of competition. In my opinion, I am the paying customer, and if I don't want to do a dive, I won't do it regardless of what the DM thinks. He is working for me. There is no competition. However, this only occurred to me after 20-some odd dives. Newer divers or those not as willing to challenge "authority" may find that it takes longer for them to realize that they have the right and responsibility to challenge their DMs if necessary.