Instruction question: to spin or not to spin

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boulderjohn

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I recently saw a thread which included a brief debate on whether or not an instructor should spin a student at the beginning of a lost line drill. I thought I might start a thread with a post from the perspective of a student who is also a specialist in educational theory.

Although it may seem obvious that instruction is supposed to prepare students for their assessment (especially a real life "assessment"), in reality many instructional practices not only fail to provide the best instruction, they may actually be counterproductive. Students can actually be better off without the instructional activity in which they are engaged. An example is what you see in a typical youth soccer practice. Players stand facing each other in pairs, passing a ball back and forth. If you examine everything they are doing carefully, you will realize that this is absolutely nothing like what happens in a game, and this drill teaches and reinforces bad habits. A simple keep away game teaches much better because the players learn to move, look, anticipate, and touch in the ways it is done in a game.

When I did my first lost line drill, I assumed I would be spun, so when I was not, I essentially spun myself. I did not pay attention to the way I was being led while blind, and when I was left alone I intentionally erased any thoughts of where the line might be and started off blindly. In retrospect, I think I chose my starting direction based on what would work best in relation to my clumsy tie off. I found the line, but, in the words of my instructor, it was not pretty.

Eventually my instructor was able to impress on me that a critical skill is taking the time to make a decision about the most likely location of the line and acting accordingly. That meant thinking about my body orientation, my previous direction of travel, and the location of the line when I had last seen it.

Spinning the student removes that learning. You have no choice but to strike out blindly. A lost line drill of that kind does not teach a critical skill and in fact teaches the opposite.

It is true that a diver may indeed become disoriented and will be unable to make that decision. In that case, the diver has simply lost a step in the process. There is no benefit to training that way because there is no additional skill gained by being disoriented.

In summary, as a student who wants to be best prepared for such an emergency, I would argue for no spinning because it teaches an important skill, whereas spinning adds no benefit and does not teach that important skill.
 
I disagree. I think the lost line drill achieves a few things:

1- First and foremost, it should pound into your head that you should never put yourself in a position that would necesitate a lost-line drill
2- Calm under pressure. You need to be able to block out the fact that you are lost, it's dark, and you have a finite supply of gas on your back and focus on your training and execute the drill
3- Situational Awareness. It should not matter if you are spun or not. You knew what the cave looked like before you got spun. You knew where the line was, you know the shape of the tunnel and the direction of the flow (if any). All of these things can be used to orient yourself in the cave and provide you directional cues to find the line.

Spinning doesn't make it more "real", but I think it makes it more relevant because you should realize that even though you won't get spun you can get very lost and should be able to use all of these aspects to get yourself squared away.
 
In retrospect, I think I chose my starting direction based on what would work best in relation to my clumsy tie off.

Now, that does bring back some memories....

Cursing under the breath - "Why did he give me such a lousy rock - I should have just changed it right away - I've already mucked around so long if I change this now this whole thing is gonna be called off - I better go that way or this whole thing is gonna unwind again..."

Talk about fake. I would have never stuck to that rock in real emergency, spun or unspun.
 
John, I think that's a SUPERB post.

I've done the drill both ways. Not only do I agree with you that the unspun drill allows you to gather important information that you OUGHT to have in a real situation, and should be able to use, there is another factor.

When Danny Riordan did this drill with us, he took us off the line a short distance (maybe 15 feet; not much more). He gave us 30 seconds -- an eternity, really -- to study where we were, where the line was, and what the landmarks near us were. Then he turned the lights off.

It took me 12 minutes to find the line. It took my buddy 14. That was WITH all the information we had. The lesson, that was burned in good and hard, was that zero viz is a VERY bad place to be, and should be avoided at all costs. It's my belief that, if you take a student off the line and spin them, they'll come out of it with the little voice in the back of their head saying, "But in a real situation, it wouldn't be that hard." And they'd be wrong. It is.
 
As someone who knows nothing about line drills could someone perhaps explain what is meant by spinning?

My assumption is that the diver is taken off a line in some random direction and then asked to re-find the line - is that what is meant by spinning?
 
As someone who knows nothing about line drills could someone perhaps explain what is meant by spinning?

My assumption is that the diver is taken off a line in some random direction and then asked to re-find the line - is that what is meant by spinning?

The diver is given a blacked out mask and then taken off the line and then required to find it again. The question is what happens after he or she is taken off the line. Is the diver led off the line and then left alone with a residual memory of getting to that point, or is the diver turned around several times so that he or she has lost all sense of direction?
 
John, I think that's a SUPERB post.

I've done the drill both ways. Not only do I agree with you that the unspun drill allows you to gather important information that you OUGHT to have in a real situation, and should be able to use, there is another factor.

When Danny Riordan did this drill with us, he took us off the line a short distance (maybe 15 feet; not much more). He gave us 30 seconds -- an eternity, really -- to study where we were, where the line was, and what the landmarks near us were. Then he turned the lights off.

It took me 12 minutes to find the line. It took my buddy 14. That was WITH all the information we had. The lesson, that was burned in good and hard, was that zero viz is a VERY bad place to be, and should be avoided at all costs.

This is like GUE vs. UTD valve drills. Do you shut down the left post while breathing it or do you purge it because you'd "never" be in the position of shutting down your left post while breathing it??

One assumption of the (worst case) lost line drill is that you are genuinely 100% lost due to completely fubared SA. In which case spinning is appropriate. The other assumption is that your awareness wasn't completely kaput, in which case having some understanding of your prior direction of travel is appropriate. Both are plausible, there's no "right answer".

It's my belief that, if you take a student off the line and spin them, they'll come out of it with the little voice in the back of their head saying, "But in a real situation, it wouldn't be that hard." And they'd be wrong. It is.

With the benefit of knowing my direction of travel, I have refound the line in as few as 6 mins in the same situations. I think its would have been alot longer if I hadn't had the capability of retracing my steps with a 180.

If students need the lost line drill to be convinced of the need for SA in a cave, they are being majorly shortchanged by their instructors So to spin or not to spin is not very important to me in the grand scheme of things.
 
Thanks for the definition John.


However on a more general point .. Is the point of the spinning to get the diver to *think* how they regain a lost point of reference given a total wipeout of visibility? (ie worst case scenario) and then to apply a procedure under extreme stress ie deprivation of sight?

Since I know nothing about caving/lines etc I shall remain silent from now on that subject :) - this looks like a really interesting thread IMHO.
 
However on a more general point .. Is the point of the spinning to get the diver to *think* how they regain a lost point of reference given a total wipeout of visibility? (ie worst case scenario) and then to apply a procedure under extreme stress ie deprivation of sight?

I guess that's what I'm asking.

One of the key steps in finding a lost line in zero visibility is to stop and think about where you last saw the line, what direction you were swimming, etc. This allows you to start your search in the best possible direction.

Spinning would make that impossible and guarantee that you set put in a random direction.

I guess I am looking for advocates of spinning to explain what is gained from that which will offset the fact that the student cannot practice would is normally an important step in the process.
 
I guess that's what I'm asking.

One of the key steps in finding a lost line in zero visibility is to stop and think about where you last saw the line, what direction you were swimming, etc. This allows you to start your search in the best possible direction.

Spinning would make that impossible and guarantee that you set put in a random direction.

I guess I am looking for advocates of spinning to explain what is gained from that which will offset the fact that the student cannot practice would is normally an important step in the process.

You need to be able to do both. I can see a reasonable argument for both spinning and not. Since you've got the "no spin" logic down how about this for the reverse?

You're scootering and the trigger sticks. You control crash into the wall because there wasn't enough time to do otherwise and you are protecting yourself and your gas at the expense of the cave & not getting tangled. You smash your HIDs test tube. You stop the prop but destroy visibility in the process. Now you need to find the line.

In words, if enough sheet happens, everyone is capable of being completely disoriented with nothing to reference for a starting direction except a hunch.
 
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