Instructor or Agency or You ?

[Genesis]

As an example, "buoyancy control" is required to be demonstrated by all agencies, but NONE OF THEM state what constitutes adequate mastery.

This is largely responsible for the mess you see.

Why not have an objective performance standard for that skill? There is one for removing and replacing a mask - you have to manage to do (and clear!) it or you fail!

There is no similar standard for buoyancy control.

 

[learn-scuba]

Genesis once bubbled...
<snip>for removing and replacing a mask - you have to manage to do (and clear!) it or you fail!<snip>

Not true. You don't fail. You just don't pass.

No matter how hard you try, you can not shove the world into a black and white picture... there are all manner of shades of gray.

Have you called the dive shop in question yet and brought this matter to their attention? Did you contact SSI? Unless you're actually doing something to affect change, you're just making noise.

 

[Genesis]

a SPECIFIC incident in this thread.

Again, do you have an issue with setting an objective standard for "passing" each of the skills?

If so, why?

 

[learn-scuba]

Genesis --

I have already stated that I personally implement and objective standard and that I felt a standard should be pushed toward the agencies.. though I do not feel the RSTC is the vehicle to do it through.

And while we're not speaking of a specific incident on this thread, your statement clearly was an inference to it and the question of whether or not you took action on it is absolutely germain to this particular thread. Because it is the failure of those who know better to call into question the shortcomings that permits them to survive. Unless those who are failing to perform are called to task for it, there is virtually no motivation to modify their behavior. Period.

Whining and carping about a problem while failing to take action and simultaneously asking some other governing body to deal with the problem for you through some legislative or regulatory action is the typical lazy "it's not my responsibility" attitude that drives me to distraction.

Yes, I support a standard... A standard of performance. More than that, I support people making a point of identifying failures and demanding something be done about it directly of those who are responsible for the problem.

 

[Genesis]

Yes, I support a standard... A standard of performance. More than that, I support people making a point of identifying failures and demanding something be done about it directly of those who are responsible for the problem.

.... call for performance if "performance" is not defined.

THAT is the crux of the problem.

IMHO, agencies should publish the skills that need to be demonstrated, and the objective criteria by which they are evaluated, so that prospective students can evaluate - and hold accountable - their instructors and agencies.

NONE of the agencies do this at the present time.

IMHO, they all need to.

Otherwise, the defense of the instructor/shop will always be "oh but they did have decent <X> when I had them do it underwater", and unless you have video tape proving otherwise in a gross and obvious manner that's the end of it!

If there is an objective standard that the student knows is the metric for success, then the student is empowered to enforce that standard right there on the spot.

That will, IMHO, solve 90%+ of the problem right up front.

 

[learn-scuba]

Putting things in black and white is nothing but a means of identifying the loopholes. A true standard of performance isa defined by conventional wisdom and is fluid.

Putting the matter of buoyancy aside for the moment, there are all manner of standards that are put in black in white both by the RSTC and the agencies and they are all violated on a daily basis. It's the same here as it is with society at large. You can not legislate morality... it's nothing but empty words on a page. It only has meaning when implemented and that requires the assumption of personal responsibility and self policing in conjunction with vigilence on the part of the public/consumer base demanding adherance... and that means YOU.

If you don't scream at the top of your lungs through all of the appropriate channels everytime you see a violation then YOU are the problem. Period. No argument. Whining about a lack of incontrovertable proof and any other list of excuses is nothing but a mechanism for rationalizing away your personal responsibility in the issue no matter what the issue is.

 

[Genesis]

is only worthwhile if it leads to sanction for violations.

I have documented proof of the table violation, in that my g/f had my Vyper with her in gauge mode, and it records profiles in that mode - which I have downloaded.

That's a CONCRETE and CLEAR violation.

So where does it go? Who wants to talk to me at SSI about it? You're an SSI person - PM me a phone number (someone who can be directly contacted, not a "phone tree" entry point) and I'll be happy to make the call.

A lot of the stupidity that I saw on those two days of diving I cannot identify with a particular agency. Most of those students were with another instructor (not with the shop that owns the boat), and I have no idea what agency they represented, so it would be impossible for me to "appropriately scream" at the agencies involved.

Perhaps objective standards identify loopholes, but through doing so we can learn where they are and over time close them.

As things stand right now its ALL a loophole!

 

[learn-scuba]

Genesis once bubbled...
is only worthwhile if it leads to sanction for violations.

This is where you are patently misguided. Change begins with a whisper. The California Recall is a perfect example. You can not expect to affect change the first time you open your mouth nor can you afford to be disilusioned because you didn't get the response you wanted the first time you spoke out.

I have documented proof of the table violation, in that my g/f had my Vyper with her in gauge mode, and it records profiles in that mode - which I have downloaded.

That's a CONCRETE and CLEAR violation.

So where does it go? Who wants to talk to me at SSI about it? You're an SSI person - PM me a phone number (someone who can be directly contacted, not a "phone tree" entry point) and I'll be happy to make the call.

You've already been offered contact with Kirk. He's a real live person and he'll listen to you. He's the right person in the right place to talk to you about your concern. Did you follow up on that offer, or do you just want me to do it for you?

A lot of the stupidity that I saw on those two days of diving I cannot identify with a particular agency. Most of those students were with another instructor (not with the shop that owns the boat), and I have no idea what agency they represented, so it would be impossible for me to "appropriately scream" at the agencies involved.

Had I been there and seen things myself that I thought to be alarming I would have made the effort to find out who they were and taken action. Alas, you prefer to complain to a group of strangers about it instead.

Perhaps objective standards identify loopholes, but through doing so we can learn where they are and over time close them.

Why not just demand that instructors meet the standard of producing divers who are competent in a conventional sense rather than outline for them what the "minimum" is? If you tell a lazy person that something is the least that's acceptable from them, then you can be assured that is the most you will get.

As things stand right now its ALL a loophole!

Only because people are ranting about it on message boards preaching to the choir where their effort is entirely a waste versus having attempted to address the issue first hand.

 

[BartBe]

I agree that the agencies have to push certain standards but the problem stays the same... and I think that's still with the instructor...

If the instructor doesn't care to much about the standards and just wants to get a max of students it's no use. Sanctions...YES, but wich newbie diver (basic open water) is going to tell on his instructor... The newbie diver (like myself ) doesn't have a clue...

My instructor seems fine and teaches 'the PADI' way. There are certain things he emphasises and he makes shure I do them the right way. He doesn't rush me trough the course to get me in open water and as long as the pool bit is not ok, no open water... simple as that. He is not afraid to mention something that is not covered by PADI and if there is a good alternative to some technique he'll tell me about it.

There are other instructors out there that make you (example) clear your mask and if it's half empty the first time you try they say 'ok' next exercise...

It still boils down to the instructor wanting to teach properly ! Any instructor that takes his diving seriously will be concerned about teaching you the best he can. Not because some agency tells him to but becouse he loves the sport and wants other people to enjoy it the way he does.

Sanctions are fine but also create the opportunity to be missused and i think u can be shure they would be so ! and what game are we playing then ?

Secondly there's yourself... with all the information available (and there is a lot of it; forums, books, magazines, internet,...) ,you can figure out quite a bit yourself. This doesn't mean you have to completely teach yourself but you can get a pretty good idea about what right and whats wrong, whats important and so on.
I guess it's a matter of interest and motivation from the new diver himself...
If you have to put everything about diving in a course ( and i'm going here just on the stuff i found out myself by being on the forums, searching the internet, reading books...) you might asswell make it a four year day school course (slightly exagerated for effect purposes ).
If you do a minimum of research yourself ( and i do mean a minimum ) and you got a minimum of grey cells left in your head ( and i do mean a minimum ), you know that diving is not just something you do because it's cool or because it's easy to impress your friends. Once you got that bit right i'm convinced that anyone can become a (fairly) good diver with a bit of good guidance ( = instructor).

And thats my modest opinion...

 

[diverbrian]

I will be honest. I prefer that the standards are NOT published for all to see. The instructors and assistants with the agency they represent are familiar with them. Don't tell the students the minimums. To sound snobbish, many will stop there as they will know what is required to pass and that is all that they are interested in. You will take the teachers like Walter and Mike F. (to name a couple of obvious ones, there are far more than that) who obviously wish to teach above the standards and cut them off at the knees.

I have seen students that would pass the practicals for being a diver. Their buoyancy control was outstanding. One problem: their buddy awareness was atricious due to poor attitude. I would hate be an instructor and be FORCED to put my instructor number on their C-Card just because they have good buoyancy control. Would they be bad divers? Not with time. But they were too young (immature) to get cards just yet. As it is, I am glad that I am not the instructor. I have that issue at work when I sign off training evaluations. I would love to certify and sign off everybody. But not everybody cares to learn and until they do, I won't trust my safety or my crew's to them. My call!

Concrete, published standards just give the "sea lawyers" (Navy term) a way to get out of putting the maximum effort into class.

My vote for what is most important at the end of the day:

THE DIVER