Instructor Requirements- continued...

[MikeFerrara]

I've seen it stated on this board that "a lot of instructors don't have good diving skills". I find this surprising. The year I did my IDC I also witnessed two others and in my opinion, all the candidates had good skills. We all had to demonstrate, and teach buoyancy by hovering Buddha style in 8 or 60 feet depth with no up or down movement. We were all living there on the island and diving every day, working with each other, so how could you NOT develop good skills? The candidates who failed the IE, unbelieveably, usually failed the Standards and Procedures exam...the open book test.
I guess it must be different if you do the whole OW thru IDC in quarries. ??

What in the world does hovering Buhhha style have to do with diving!? An ill-trimed person may have no choice but to hover Buddha style or some other similarly upright posture. If I was designing an IE the candidates would have to show me that they could maintain a horizontal position without kicking or skulling, and maintain it while swiming forward, backward, turning, ascending, descending, sharing air, replacing a mask, dealing with a free flow or just about any combination of the above. That's diving. Hovering buddha style or upside down might be fun at times but it's little or no indication of ones diving skill.

So in answer to your question...

We were all living there on the island and diving every day, working with each other, so how could you NOT develop good skills?

...

You won't develop good skills if you aren't aware of what good skills are.

I guess I don't know where you're going with the comment about an IDC in quarries.

Not to pick on you but this really is just about a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

 

[Hank49]

What in the world does hovering Buhhha style have to do with diving!? An ill-trimed person may have no choice but to hover Buddha style or some other similarly upright posture. If I was designing an IE the candidates would have to show me that they could maintain a horizontal position without kicking or skulling, and maintain it while swiming forward, backward, turning, ascending, descending, sharing air, replacing a mask, dealing with a free flow or just about any combination of the above. That's diving. Hovering buddha style or upside down might be fun at times but it's little or no indication of ones diving skill.

So in answer to your question......

You won't develop good skills if you aren't aware of what good skills are.

I guess I don't know where you're going with the comment about an IDC in quarries.

Not to pick on you but this really is just about a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Hovering buddha style while holding your fin tips was a requirement and it does take practice. I guess it was a poor example.
The quarry statement was in response to your "let the students dive" while learning skills. All I was stating is that we did "let them dive". In doing so, myself and the students had to maintain horizontal position and swim just above the sand.

 

[-hh]

dude, and you asked ME for data?? I have never seen a three weeks rescue DM OWSI...

I don't know if I've seen one or not.

However, when we review the Standards (in this case, PADI), it is mathmatically possible to go from nearly "Nothing" to OWSI very quickly.

Not counting qualifiers like number of dives or months since originally OW-I certified, the training times that are listed are:

Rescue --> DM: 2 weeks to 3 months
DM --> AI: 3 days to "more than two weeks"
AI --> OSWI: 4 days to "3 weeks or more"

Thus, at the minimums for each, its: 2 weeks + 3 days + 4 days = 3 weeks total.

Even if we add AOW and Rescue to the mix, we're only adding around two more weeks: 15+25 class hours, plus (5+5) dives over (2+2) days.

What this means is a YMMV. It might mean that the standards are "too low" to really do a good job in training up a leader, or in sorting out a good leader from bad.

It might also mean that the standards are sufficiently accomodating to a highly talented 'natural' who simply lacks formal credentials...a diver who got his OW-I years ago could in theory get all of his credentials tickets punched in just over a month.

In any event, the existence of this avenue belies a corporate belief or attitude that little to no actual hands-on experience is required at any of the intermediate Leadership levels before progressing to unsupervised OWSI.

-hh

 

[-hh]

July could have been rainy too.

hh, Do you have a point to make? If so just make it in 50 words or less and get it over with.

My point here was that we don't know what cause August's incidence spike is attributable to. One possibility's that its Darwin sorting out the first-year Novices. If that is the case, what does that say overall about our training system?


-hh

 

[MikeFerrara]

In some agencies it's possible to become an instructor with only one dive beyond 60 ft (the one you did during your own AOW class). After the IE you are then able to teach to 100 ft even though you may have never been there.

You can do your first hundred foot dive while supervising a student who is doing their 5th lifetime dive having just completed the OW course maybe even that very day.

 

[-hh]

Why haven't the agencies addressed the DAN buoyancy control numbers?

The tacit admission that their standards aren't good enough, which could be perceived as a liability exposure. This also leads to a perception of reduced gear sales if they make it harder for people to become certified. Follow the money...

Do you think that the agencies haven't heard of all ...{of this before, and}...are smart enough to put 2 and 2 together and realize that they don't really teach divers how to dive together or require them to demonstrate that they can?

They know. Back in the day, there used to be "virtual standards" on drills such as the NAUI Bailout, but these pragmatic demonstrations of the ability to combine and apply skills were discouraged (eg, eliminated) from classes as a waste of time, under the Agency's claimed rationale that they were useless because they did not represent "real world" situations.

Of course they don't, but they do represent a reasonably safe technique to learn how to use all of the skills together, including the most necessary skill of prioritization, which is absent from class standards today.

Meantime, everyone acts all mystified why even the simplest of work taskloads cause cascading events and fatalities...


-hh

 

[diverbrian]

<snip>
I dont see why not, this idea would mesh perfectly with LDS dive clubs.
<snip>

Actually, our divers are a little more independent. We would rather train them to not need a DM as our boats seldom provide an in-water divemaster or dive guide. I have been known to cross off some of the boats from my list of charter ops that I personally use that do provide this "service" because in-water DM's tend to have a nasty habit of trying to tell me my dive plan. I make my dive plan during and after the briefing with my buddy. That attitude rubs off on the students that we teach. Our students/new divers do not believe in paying for a DM, but I have seen them happy to have one around that can play dive guide once in a while.

I am not cutting my dive short because a DM only has an AL80 and I happen to be diving doubles and a stage bottle. Neither am I recommending that a new diver with an AOW card earned in the Caribbean dive the William Young (water temp in low forties and in 110 ft. of water) for their first Great Lakes dive WITH or WITHOUT a dive professional. Neither of these extremes make for an enjoyable dive.

I like your idea though, I wish more people would incorperate skills into the dive, I am sure that a lot of Mikes objections would be resolved if more instructors did this.

It also works for you cold water guys where 20 minutes of kneeling chills a student diver so much that they lose focus and want to shorten the dive.. swim around a bit, do a skill, swim some more..keep warm.

Many times, with the classes that I assist with the cold water will cause us to run dives that don't push gas management at all. The students are too cold after twenty minutes of dive time to want to continue. Let's face it, silty lake bottoms are ideal for teaching proper trim and buoyancy as they immediately "tattle" on the student when this off. But they are somewhat boring at times and students like to stay warm. Most of the students don't have drysuits (although we do offer that option in open water). That is for the DiveCon's and Instructors, LOL. So, really the only option is to do the skills during the dive "on command".

Let's face it, when the students are certified and go to the warmer climates they aren't going to want to go to the ocean bottom along that wall in Cayman or the Turks and Caicos to share air or clear a mask because they are only comfortable doing these things kneeling on a pool bottom or a platform. That is common sense. So, why bother teaching it that way?

 

[jbd]

True, these days when diving with students I move like an arthritic snail. This forces students to control their buoyancy and their finning technique.

LOL!!! I do the same thing. You're absoulutely right

 

[Mako Mark]

Absolutely. I think having students actually dive while their learning to dive is a fantastic idea.

which is exactly what I have been trying to tell Mike for nearly a year now....

he only difference, is Mike believes that students need to do this uncertified and under supervision,

I on the other hand, believe that a diver can progress under their own steam as long as they understand the basics and have a level of skill and knowledge of the limits of their education.


either that or Mike is actually agreeing with me, in which case.... C'mon Mike Gimme a kiss.. c'mon...

including the most necessary skill of prioritization, which is absent from class standards today.-hh

prioritization of what??

All my students learn:

prioritization of emergency ascents
prioritization of dive planning
prioritization of comfortable descents and ascents.

And they learn that from the PADI open water manual, so I would guess that all other PADI Open water divers learn it too.

Hovering buddha style while holding your fin tips was a requirement and it does take practice. .

The performance requirement is "using bouyancy controll hover without kicking or sculling for at least 30 seconds"

Sorry dude, no fin tips and no buddha there..

My point here was that we don't know what cause August's incidence spike is attributable to. One possibility's that its Darwin sorting out the first-year Novices. If that is the case, what does that say overall about our training system?


-hh

Or it could just be school holidays..

 

[jbd]

The performance requirement is "using bouyancy controll hover without kicking or sculling for at least 30 seconds"

Sorry dude, no fin tips and no buddha there..

The buddha thing has been around for a while. I have seen people from different agencies using it to teach bouoyancy control. Not sure where it came from exactly but I would guess it came from a poorly trimmed instructor who was beginning to understand buoyancy control but not weight distribution.

Its interesting to note that what Hank49 was told was a requirement was really somones interpretation of the actual requirement and that interpretation became "law" in much of the scuba industry.