Intro to Cave versus Full Cave - access to sites

[handben]

My brother and I are both cavern certified (since 1991). We've both done a good number of cavern dives. After a recent trip back to cave country, we're both interested in furthering our training. For the time being, I am comfortable limiting my dives to the intro level as I understand it: 1/3 of a single tank (I'd like to use a 120-130 with Y valve), no deco, depth less than 100 feet and vis >30ft. My question is to what extent will my access to dive sites be limited by an Intro cert rather than Full Cave? In other words are there many sites in Florida where one can only enter the water with Full Cave rather than Intro? Thanks for the responses and advice that I know is sure to come. (I love scubaboard!) Ben

 

[DA Aquamaster]

There are sites like the upstream portion of Cow Springs that require Full cave. Then there are sites like Waynes World that require 100 dives after full cave. And then there are some sites that require you go with someone familiar with the site (initially), Friedmans Sink for example, and there are still others where a guide is required.

There are loads of places to dive at the intro level, but generally speaking being Full Cave opens a lot of doors both in terms of dive sites and in terms of penetration. It will also let you get into less traveled caves as well as some of the less traveled and more remote areas of high traffic caves.

And quite frankly, even if you continue to dive at an Intro level, the additional training and skills acquired in a full cave course will make you a safer diver.

Some cert agencies allow you to use doubles for 12 or 18 months (depending on the agency) past your intro cert to allow you to build experience in them. But you are still limited to 1/6ths with them, so it is not a substitute for Full Cave. This is much like Apprentice where it is a temporary training level that expires rather than a cert.

My advice it to get your Intro to Cave cert then get a year or so of experience diving at the Intro level (ideally in doubles), then take the Full Cave class if you are ready to move up. Then when you have your Full Cave cert, continue to dive conservatively, be prudent and stay within the limits of both your training and experience.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Aside from maybe Cow upstream, I can't think of anywhere that you'll be able to dive with a Full Cave(without other prerequisites) card that you can't with an Intro Cave card.

You can use doubles with an Intro card, Ginnie is a it stupid about this at times, but nobody else will give you any hassles. I think Ginnie has even straightened this issue out.

 

[kidsdream]

While as noted you will be limited in some respect from certain systems, the real issue issue IMHO is that additional training prepares you (and requires further refinement of your skills) for more "complicated" dives. One of the key skills that you practice and will be qualified to complete (starting at the Apprentice level) are jumps.

The ability to do simple simple jumps really opens up a cave system without having to go far into certain systems such a Peacock 1.The skill to tie a spool or reel into a permanent line also requires you to hone you buoyancy and line awareness to the next level.

 

[TSandM]

I'm assuming your question relates solely to Florida . . . But in Mexico, there is a TON of cave accessible at the Intro level. I have 80 cave dives past Intro/Cave 1, and I understand I haven't hit all the sites that are possible at that cert level yet.

 

[ucfdiver]

You can use doubles with an Intro card, Ginnie is a it stupid about this at times, but nobody else will give you any hassles. I think Ginnie has even straightened this issue out.

Ginnie is VERY clear at this point-- if you were trained in doubles, you can dive doubles, if you weren't, you can't. Just make sure that if your card doesn't say it, that you have a letter from your instructor.

With the accidents that have occurred due to not knowing how to manipulate valves correctly, you really can't blame them, either.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

With the accidents that have occurred due to not knowing how to manipulate valves correctly, you really can't blame them, either.

Sure I can. Its not like there are an outstanding amount of deaths caused by this.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

One of the first things I noted after Full Cave is that Ginnie is fairly low flow once you get off the gold line - that in and of itself makes Full Cave worth it.

I also agree there are lots of side tunnels in both Ginnie and Peacock that can be accesssed with just a jump or two that are diveable well within thirds on doubles. So Full Cave opens up a lot more areas in caves you will have previously dove only on the gold line at the intro level.

Regarding Intro and doubles, I can see Ginnie's point. The idea behind limiting an intro diver to 1/3rds on a single or 1/6ths on doubles is to limit their penetration and the amount of trouble they can get into. It is fairly easy to screen the divers in single tanks, but how exactly do you know if an Intro Diver is diving doubles within his or her limits at 1/6ths or is exceeding them by diving 1/3rds? Thirds in doubles could get you well past the maple leaf on the mainline - and that could be a long way for an intro diver to exit if he or she has a problem.

On the other hand I dove Ginne several times in my 15 months or so between Intro and Full and was never quetioned about it, and it is not even an issue elswhere so it is still pretty much up to the diver to stay within his or her limits. In the event an Intro diver in doubles does do something stupid and gets themselves killed, the no doubles for intor divers policy, the intro cert in doubles waiver, or the letter from the instructor allowing doubles, keeps the liabilty issue cleaner for Ginnie.

 

[Cave Bum]

Ginnie is VERY clear at this point-- if you were trained in doubles, you can dive doubles, if you weren't, you can't. Just make sure that if your card doesn't say it, that you have a letter from your instructor.

With the accidents that have occurred due to not knowing how to manipulate valves correctly, you really can't blame them, either.

Actually, NSS-CDS changed their standards because of Ginnie and started issuing 'Basic Cave' which is Intro in Doubles...

Standards are 1/3 of singles or 1/6 of doubles which means an over pumped 121 as about as much gas as a pair of 95's and you can use thirds with it.

I think NACD has or is going to do that too...

 

[ucfdiver]

Sure I can. Its not like there are an outstanding amount of deaths caused by this.

I can think of a recent cave diving death that had to do with a closed isolator, and one or two posted on TDS (non cave). After hearing about the recovery earlier this year, I remember thinking "Well, this basically cements Ginnie's stance on doubles". Everyone claims doubles are so easy-- I have no arguments towards that, they're very simple-- yet people still die from making stupid mistakes in them.

Actually, NSS-CDS changed their standards because of Ginnie and started issuing 'Basic Cave' which is Intro in Doubles...

Standards are 1/3 of singles or 1/6 of doubles which means an over pumped 121 as about as much gas as a pair of 95's and you can use thirds with it.

I think NACD has or is going to do that too...

NACD and NSS-CDS both allow diving doubles at intro if you were trained in them. And sure, bigger tanks can work around the rules. 1/6ths on HP130's can put you almost 800-1000ft back in Ginnie, close to the FL room in LR, and easily 1200+ft back in Peacock. If someone wants to be funny and do those dives on a single tank because you can get more gas on a single LP121 to 1/3rds....we'll I guess that's their call. You're getting REALLY close to deco on those dives, it would be interesting to see what happens when diving 1/3rds of a LP121, hitting deco, and having to do an airshare on exit....hopefully they have DAN.