Is Halcyon price fixing?
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DivePartner1
Contributor
Scuba,
A service of this board is the share the kind of information you've experienced with Aqualung.
Genesisi, in you other post (and from those of others) you've about sold me on Halcyon (so I'm confused). Does anyone have experience with their warranty performance vis a vis Dive Rite or OMS?
A service of this board is the share the kind of information you've experienced with Aqualung.
Genesisi, in you other post (and from those of others) you've about sold me on Halcyon (so I'm confused). Does anyone have experience with their warranty performance vis a vis Dive Rite or OMS?
I separate business practices from performance.
I have products from two manufacturers who quite proudly do things that I think may be potential anti-trust problems - Halcyon and Scubapro.
Both have provided me good service; I have no objection to EITHER firm's products.
Its the business practices that bother me....
I have products from two manufacturers who quite proudly do things that I think may be potential anti-trust problems - Halcyon and Scubapro.
Both have provided me good service; I have no objection to EITHER firm's products.
Its the business practices that bother me....
Scuba
Contributor
DivePartner1,
you wrote:
I'm not clear on the intended meaning of your statement.
I believe the post you refer to fully qualifies.
you wrote:
I'm not clear on the intended meaning of your statement.
I believe the post you refer to fully qualifies.
Scubaroo
Contributor
Ummm........
If Halcyon is price fixing, then how come I can buy Halcyon products below the RRP from Lloyd Bailey's, and still receive after sales support from Halcyon?
This is a rhetorical question - it doesn't need a thousand followup posts quoting rulings in support of the allegation. As a consumer, I don't see any price fixing by Halcyon. Extreme Exposure isn't the only Halcyon retailer.
Ben
If Halcyon is price fixing, then how come I can buy Halcyon products below the RRP from Lloyd Bailey's, and still receive after sales support from Halcyon?
This is a rhetorical question - it doesn't need a thousand followup posts quoting rulings in support of the allegation. As a consumer, I don't see any price fixing by Halcyon. Extreme Exposure isn't the only Halcyon retailer.
Ben
DivePartner1
Contributor
Sorry scuba, et al.
In English: Thanks for steering us from a bum steer.
In English: Thanks for steering us from a bum steer.
Halcyon's "Fair Trade Pricing" looked to be an awful lot more than an "MSRP sheet" - if they don't enforce it, then they're not one of the nasty ones.
There's nothing wrong with publishing a "suggested retail price" list. Its only when you retaliate against dealers that don't cotton to it that you get in trouble.
BTW, there isn't much difference between Halcyon's "list price" and what they sell things for. Definitely within the 10% discount "maximum" that most of the agreements specify - can you cite a specific example that exceeds a 10% discount from the "FTP" list, to an ordinary consumer (not an instructor or other shop, etc)?
Your Lloyd Bailey's example isn't - at least not yet.
There's nothing wrong with publishing a "suggested retail price" list. Its only when you retaliate against dealers that don't cotton to it that you get in trouble.
BTW, there isn't much difference between Halcyon's "list price" and what they sell things for. Definitely within the 10% discount "maximum" that most of the agreements specify - can you cite a specific example that exceeds a 10% discount from the "FTP" list, to an ordinary consumer (not an instructor or other shop, etc)?
Your Lloyd Bailey's example isn't - at least not yet.
Scubaroo
Contributor
RRP for a 55lb Explorer wing - $338.
Gary's Underwater Technical Supply - $299.
11.5% discount.
I'm a bit worried Genesis - you've just bought a Halcyon rig, and you own a Scubapro Mk25 regulator - now you seem to be going after both Halcyon and Scubapro for illegal business practices!?! What gives, you don't like their stuff?
Gary's Underwater Technical Supply - $299.
11.5% discount.
I'm a bit worried Genesis - you've just bought a Halcyon rig, and you own a Scubapro Mk25 regulator - now you seem to be going after both Halcyon and Scubapro for illegal business practices!?! What gives, you don't like their stuff?
The stuff sells (demand). Why on earth would we sell it for less? Given how hard it is for us to get the stuff (supply), the price should maybe go up.
One thing that seems different about Halcyon is we don't seem to see nondealers with warehouses full of stuff that the manufacturer claims not to have sold them. I think they only sell to dealers. I think many of the other manufacturers are selling things out the back door to nondealers with enough money to buy themselves out of having to follow the same rules as the dealers.
The maunufacturer isn't trying to keep prices up. They don't care. They get the prices they want. In fact they are killing the lds with the business they do out the back door. Any one who thinks these aholes care anything about the lds is just flat out nuts! Perhaps the biggest wrong is the restrictions on servicing. The requirements for dealer opening orders, anual sales, forcing you to carry the entire line and refusing you as a dealer if you carry certain other brands border on extortion.
No...the day a certain rep told me that if I didn't stop selling so much of brand x and sell more of his that my delership would be pulled...that is extortion.
And you folks are misinformed enough or just have the plain gaul to think the lds has any control at all. It makes me sick!
One thing that seems different about Halcyon is we don't seem to see nondealers with warehouses full of stuff that the manufacturer claims not to have sold them. I think they only sell to dealers. I think many of the other manufacturers are selling things out the back door to nondealers with enough money to buy themselves out of having to follow the same rules as the dealers.
The maunufacturer isn't trying to keep prices up. They don't care. They get the prices they want. In fact they are killing the lds with the business they do out the back door. Any one who thinks these aholes care anything about the lds is just flat out nuts! Perhaps the biggest wrong is the restrictions on servicing. The requirements for dealer opening orders, anual sales, forcing you to carry the entire line and refusing you as a dealer if you carry certain other brands border on extortion.
No...the day a certain rep told me that if I didn't stop selling so much of brand x and sell more of his that my delership would be pulled...that is extortion.
And you folks are misinformed enough or just have the plain gaul to think the lds has any control at all. It makes me sick!
Many people think that something's good for them when its really not.
This is one of those situations.
The LDS can't "protect" their business. Oh sure, they can sell a few things to a new student, but that's it. Once the student figures out that they just paid twice for something, unless there's a real good reason for it (like some kind of simply OUTSTANDING service policy) they're gone on the equipment sales side, never to return (and likely to be rather unhappy with that shop)
The manufacturers can't stop it either - at least those that mass-market can't. Halcyon can, simply due to production volume - there's no incentive to backdoor deal those products.
But the others? Forgetaboutit. The manufacturer cares about only one thing - how many they sell. They couch the "no discounting" stuff in a way that sounds like they're protecting the LDS, but in fact they're doing no such thing. The backdoor sales will never go away, because these manufacturers are volume-based.
So the LDS' lose at least twice and perhaps several more times. They first lose the respect of the customer, who finds out that the so-called "price stability" is nonsense and they can buy from LP or DiveInn. They lose again when the LDS tries to disclaim the warranty on the LP or DiveInn product. Then they lose AGAIN in that those sales are forever gone and as soon as I buy my first thing from LP and the transaction is just fine I will never give the LDS any more of my money for equipment subject to their 'price controls'.
Look, if you were a local dive shop, which would you rather have?
A sale at $25-$50 over LP's price for a regulator, or no sale at all?
If the sale is at a price over your cost, and the alternative is that I buy it from DiveInn or LP, then your choice is not so simple as "price protection." Now it comes down to whether you want any of my money - a much, much tougher decision.
Only a fool tells me to take a hike in that situation.
The LDS could easily revolt if they decided to. The better question is why they don't....
There are a lot of fools in the LDS business...
This is one of those situations.
The LDS can't "protect" their business. Oh sure, they can sell a few things to a new student, but that's it. Once the student figures out that they just paid twice for something, unless there's a real good reason for it (like some kind of simply OUTSTANDING service policy) they're gone on the equipment sales side, never to return (and likely to be rather unhappy with that shop)
The manufacturers can't stop it either - at least those that mass-market can't. Halcyon can, simply due to production volume - there's no incentive to backdoor deal those products.
But the others? Forgetaboutit. The manufacturer cares about only one thing - how many they sell. They couch the "no discounting" stuff in a way that sounds like they're protecting the LDS, but in fact they're doing no such thing. The backdoor sales will never go away, because these manufacturers are volume-based.
So the LDS' lose at least twice and perhaps several more times. They first lose the respect of the customer, who finds out that the so-called "price stability" is nonsense and they can buy from LP or DiveInn. They lose again when the LDS tries to disclaim the warranty on the LP or DiveInn product. Then they lose AGAIN in that those sales are forever gone and as soon as I buy my first thing from LP and the transaction is just fine I will never give the LDS any more of my money for equipment subject to their 'price controls'.
Look, if you were a local dive shop, which would you rather have?
A sale at $25-$50 over LP's price for a regulator, or no sale at all?
If the sale is at a price over your cost, and the alternative is that I buy it from DiveInn or LP, then your choice is not so simple as "price protection." Now it comes down to whether you want any of my money - a much, much tougher decision.
Only a fool tells me to take a hike in that situation.
The LDS could easily revolt if they decided to. The better question is why they don't....
There are a lot of fools in the LDS business...
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