Is "learning the hard lesson" necessary?

[SnorkelLA]

Everyone responds to situations underwater differently. I personally have had my regulator kicked out of my mouth with a violent free flow while diving the Spiegel Grove at around 110 ft. Easily could have sent a less experienced diver into a damn frenzy. I simply went to my bungeed octo and found my primary, which was simply draped over my shoulder.

A quote I saw on someone's profile here once, "You have until the rest of your life to solve any problems while diving."


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[Dsix36]

I maintain that it should always work like this:

1 - Stop
2 - Think
3 - React

I will allow the exception of letting "muscle memory" (from lots of trainng drills) do its thing though.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Thanks everyone for the insight and different POV.


First, not a jerk at all. I asked for input, and you're offering it.

Second, it seems to me from threads others linked that having your reg ripped out can indeed be panic inducing, even for seasoned divers.

But more to the point, as you said, it "has to test your abilities". That suggests something which is related to how good your abilities are. If you were doing solo dives to 80ft at 14, I'd imagine at that point you already had a good number of dives of experience. But for someone who doesn't even have their OW cert yet and is going into the ocean for the first time, it seems to me anything beyond mimicking a skill just shown and not bolting to the surface is already to the point of testing their abilities.

I guess that is true. The training now is so abbreviated, that I agree that many people are "diving on the edge" by simply descending. It is great that you did not panic, but as TSM said, we all have our breaking points. And it may be different on different days...Anyone can have a bad day.. You know.. some days the idiot cuts you off on the interstate and you lose it and scream obscenities... and other days you just laugh and say a little prayer.

Regardless of the fact that it occurs relatively often in some traiing situations, "Bolting to the surface" is unacceptable except in the most dire of circumstances. It is incredibly dangerous.

It is going to take you years to learn what kind of sea state you can handle, what is an acceptable current, what size swells will allow you to scramble up a rock and what ones will smash your face into granite, what depth will cause a level of narcosis that makes you uncomfortable, that you should not bear-hug a large speared fish (some day I will get my chipped tooth fixed) etc. etc... some of these lessons (unfortunately) need to be learned the hard way.

 

[DevonDiver]

If a novice diver makes a personal commitment to adhere to 'safe diving principles', follow the prudent agency recommendations and devote some time and effort towards keeping their basic open water skills fresh and accessible, then they should have the confidence of knowing that no scenario likely to present itself will be beyond their capability to resolve.

Confidence in your ability is an effective weapon against panic. Panic is simply the last psychological defense (albeit a counter-productive one) when the moment occurs that you don't have an ingrained response or clear idea of how to save yourself.

Good quality, challenging, training is also a method for developing confidence and capacity. The 'hard lessons' can be simulated in a safe, supervised training environment - giving divers a realistic assessment of their true capabilities and pre-acquainting them with the stress of incident resolution.

Diving training has become increasingly more 'fun' over the years... and, in many instances, the benefit of challenge, stress familiarization and 'learning from mistakes' has been generally lost from the recreational curriculum IMHO. Technical diving courses still provide that benefit.

Training and experience should match the dives undertaken. That's a sound principle, taught in every scuba course, that is often overlooked or ignored by divers. Mainstream agency courses have gotten simpler, easier and shorter in recent decades - with an emphasis on convenience, enjoyment and low cost. The diving activities undertaken by people who do low-cost, short-duration 'bare minimum' training need to reflect the limitations of that training.

 

[Them]

To the OP... no, you don't need to exceed the limit of your sangfroid to learn. Exceeding you sangfroid is not only exponentially riskier, but it can cause you to learn incorrect responses that happen to work (like bolting to the surface - maybe OK at 20 feet, not so hot at 40), thus setting yourself up for future failure.

The main caveat for diving is that some of what is called panic is really that our bodies have reflexive behaviors that evolved to serve us in our air-breathing surface environment. Those behaviors are dangerously inappropriate in water. In some cases training yourself to override those behaviors will involve triggering them. I think everyone goes through that with water in the nose for example.

 

[TSandM]

I would definitely agree that panic is the last result of being faced with a situation you can't resolve, despite trying. But near-panic -- the urge to bolt -- can be much closer than that. I have told my embarrassing story about descending on a shut-off regulator, and getting about five or six feet underwater when I "ran out of gas". My initial reaction just stunned me -- it was to have a huge adrenaline rush and start swimming for the surface as fast as I could. Within a half second or so, my rational mind said, "You idiot, you have your stage turned off," and I fixed the problem. But it was a huge education in how even someone with all the training I have and all the diving I've done can be faced with something unexpected and have to make a rapid and big effort to take oneself in hand. The brain just doesn't want to be underwater when the body can't breathe or is heavily stressed, and the surface looks like a real good option until the cerebral cortex can take control and start giving rational orders. ANYBODY who thinks that they have trained and dived PAST the point where they can experience that primal urge is kidding themselves.

 

[toliver66]

toliver66, You explain it well. It's interesting that the fewer dives you do over time, the less likely you are to get into trouble. The more dives you have, the more likely it is something bad will happen but you should be better prepared for it. That make sense?

Thank you. And yes, that makes perfect sense.

"What to do while panicking" is the wrong take-away from the incidents.

The real lesson that should be learned is that everything taught in a good OW class is really important, and if you actually learned, remembered and practiced what you learned every time, the event would not have occurred...

I have to stop you right there. In a phrase... "**** happens!" Things WILL go wrong despite your best efforts. Things that are beyond your control or any ability to influence will happen even if you are faithfully following every thing you were ever taught in every dive training course you have ever taken. To think other wise is the very definition of complacency and just plain fool hardy. Other wise I completely agree with every thing else you said, and it bears repeating again "everything taught in a good OW class is really important" and should be practiced and mastered. An OW cert is nothing more than a learners permit to learn how to dive.

If a novice diver makes a personal commitment to adhere to 'safe diving principles', follow the prudent agency recommendations and devote some time and effort towards keeping their basic open water skills fresh and accessible, then they should have the confidence of knowing that no scenario likely to present itself will be beyond their capability to resolve.

Confidence in your ability is an effective weapon against panic. Panic is simply the last psychological defense (albeit a counter-productive one) when the moment occurs that you don't have an ingrained response or clear idea of how to save yourself.

Good quality, challenging, training is also a method for developing confidence and capacity. The 'hard lessons' can be simulated in a safe, supervised training environment - giving divers a realistic assessment of their true capabilities and pre-acquainting them with the stress of incident resolution.

Diving training has become increasingly more 'fun' over the years... and, in many instances, the benefit of challenge, stress familiarization and 'learning from mistakes' has been generally lost from the recreational curriculum IMHO. Technical diving courses still provide that benefit.

Training and experience should match the dives undertaken. That's a sound principle, taught in every scuba course, that is often overlooked or ignored by divers. Mainstream agency courses have gotten simpler, easier and shorter in recent decades - with an emphasis on convenience, enjoyment and low cost. The diving activities undertaken by people who do low-cost, short-duration 'bare minimum' training need to reflect the limitations of that training.

Very well said.

---------- Post Merged at 12:37 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:30 AM ----------

...ANYBODY who thinks that they have trained and dived PAST the point where they can experience that primal urge is kidding themselves.

I whole heartily agree... But I don't see where anyone is suggesting that they have reached this god like status.

 

[Tyger]

More great responses, keep them coming!

I guess that is true. The training now is so abbreviated, that I agree that many people are "diving on the edge" by simply descending. It is great that you did not panic, but as TSM said, we all have our breaking points. And it may be different on different days...Anyone can have a bad day.. You know.. some days the idiot cuts you off on the interstate and you lose it and scream obscenities... and other days you just laugh and say a little prayer.

Very nice analogy. On the training, unfortunately it is what it is. I've been trying to make the best of it. So far my fiancee and I have been sponges for anything we can learn. (To the point that several times the instructor asked a question he thought would stump everyone, and we knew the answer. Admittedly some of it, like the difference between DCI and DCS, isn't necessarily going to be useful, but some of it has already served me well.)

Regardless of the fact that it occurs relatively often in some traiing situations, "Bolting to the surface" is unacceptable except in the most dire of circumstances. It is incredibly dangerous.

I was more referring to it as the initial response an untrained diver (Or even an experienced diver, really) will try to do if they forget what they have learned.

Training and experience should match the dives undertaken. That's a sound principle, taught in every scuba course, that is often overlooked or ignored by divers. Mainstream agency courses have gotten simpler, easier and shorter in recent decades - with an emphasis on convenience, enjoyment and low cost. The diving activities undertaken by people who do low-cost, short-duration 'bare minimum' training need to reflect the limitations of that training.

If someone ignores that, it's not through not hearing it. I don't know about other courses, but every single PADI book I've seen repeats that several times, in several ways. (And this weekend will probably provide for some amusement. I'm doing AOW dives this weekend... And half the class did their OW and past dives in warm clear waters. The water here is 55 degrees and 5-10 foot viz. The other half of the class, including myself, who learned around here are doing dry-suit specialty at the same time.)

The main caveat for diving is that some of what is called panic is really that our bodies have reflexive behaviors that evolved to serve us in our air-breathing surface environment. Those behaviors are dangerously inappropriate in water. In some cases training yourself to override those behaviors will involve triggering them.

That makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure about training to override those behaviors if you don't even know what will trigger them. I'm sure there are common ones, but I everyone is different, and I doubt any are universal...

I think everyone goes through that with water in the nose for example.

For example, I actually didn't have any issues when this happened to me. During the OW skills, on the mask removal/replacement, I must have had my head tilted a bit back prematurely, because a bunch of seawater flooded through my nose and basically at that point just ran down my throat and the best I could do was swallow it. I'm talking a good sized gulp, not just a little trickle. It surprised me a bit, but I think it surprised me more that it didn't faze me one bit. I doubt anyone watching even realized anything happened.

---------- Post Merged at 12:26 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:18 AM ----------

I have been in several uncomfortable situations, involving either currents or cramps. And my "experienced" buddy left me to hunt lobsters on a fairly deep wreck when I was new to diving. Again, uncomfortable. Maybe some of these times would've led someone else into panic. Perhaps being comfortable in water my whole life helped me out (I've only dived 7 years). Your question is a very good one, and one I have pondered before. I've never been anywhere near close to panic, so maybe that's not so good? I just don't know the answer. I usually take all safety precautions I can think of and stay away from dives that don't look right. Maybe I'll get lucky and never find out the answer. I do believe that anyone, regardless of experience, can panic given the right circumstances.

I've been comfortable in water my whole life as well, as has my fiancee. (Though using fins is a new one for me; I never liked the things in the past.) I suspect it would take something like getting tangled to even start to rattle me, but until it happens, I plan to just make sure I'm as prepared as I can be for anything that comes up.

 

[Them]

That makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure about training to override those behaviors if you don't even know what will trigger them. I'm sure there are common ones, but I everyone is different, and I doubt any are universal...

To the extent that we are all basically land mammals with similar anatomy I suspect they are all as close to universal as makes no difference. What isn't universal is our past experience.

For example, I actually didn't have any issues [with water in nostrils]. During the OW skills, on the mask removal/replacement, I must have had my head tilted a bit back prematurely, because a bunch of seawater flooded through my nose and basically at that point just ran down my throat and the best I could do was swallow it. I'm talking a good sized gulp, not just a little trickle. It surprised me a bit, but I think it surprised me more that it didn't faze me one bit. I doubt anyone watching even realized anything happened.

I'm not too surprised. Look up what people do with neti pots. Spitting is generally recommended through.

You don't have to face something while diving for it to apply to diving. Was that your first experience like that? No saline sprays, nasal inhalers, swimming, neti pots, bath tubs, etc? If it was, interesting.

I had probably passed several gallons of water through my nostrils by the time I was 15. None of it from diving, but I think the experience and learned responses (good and bad) definitely have an influence on my reactions while diving today.

 

[rhwestfall]

incidents do not build character, they reveal it....