Is Padi advanced worth taking ?

[Rice]

I'm concerned that I'm going to have to take AOW just so I can take rescue.

Are there instructors that will let you skip AOW? Honestley I'd take it if I felt that there was alot to learn there but my original training was pretty darn good, I've been down 100 feet several times, I've done night dives, and I've rescud a frantic diver in a swift current.

I'm not saying I know everything, I plan on further training in several areas, but what is offered in AOW seems like stuff that should have been covered in OW. the one way i might take it is if i an combine it with nitrox(ssi allows this). But I think i have a ntrox only class lined up soon anyway.

Personally, I'd be seriously pissed if a dive boat wouldn't let me pay thm to go dive beacuse I don't have an AOW card. But I've never run into that

Rice

 

[seanrollins]

Ready for a biased opinion? (I'm an instructor!)

Okay, I'm kidding. In all honesty, my advanced course was a waste of money. The advanced course all depends on who your instructor is, and whether he is looking to make money, or looking to make safe divers. If you get a good instructor, the advanced class will teach you a lot!

 

[MikeFerrara]

As a PADI instructor, I am of the opinion that the AOW per the outline is pretty weak. If you combine that with the fact that many students are not prepared it usually amounts to 5 dives with a babysitter.

I can't help bu laugh when I watch some of these classes doing things like tieing knots for a S&R dive while sitting on a platform or crawling their way through a nav course.

I think the class I teach is ok but that has absolutely nothing to do with anything in the PADI materials.

For those who think they need to take AOW so they can take rescue...

Not true. You can get passed that with a little logged experience in deep and nav.

Of late I have gotten real concerned because there has been a few AOW students injured or killed. If you search this board you'll find plenty of references. There just isn't any sense in doing deep dives unless the student is good at shallow ones.

BTW, you can become an instructor with only one dive below 60 feet. An AOW deep dive can be done at 100 ft. That means that it's possible for a student doing his 5th lifetime dive to go to 100 ft with an instructor who hasn't ever been there either. That might explain some of the antics we see on the deep side of Gilboa. LOL

 

[DeepScuba]

Hey Mike, I guess in theory that is true, but even for my DM class, our instructors wanted to see a min of 100 logged dives, and 25 of them over 80'.

I guess one could have screamed blue murder and say that that wasn't PADI standards, (But nobody did) And the instructor "might" have had to capitulate, but then again, he never has to sign the card either.

I can't say much for my AOW class either. Basically I did the dives I was going to anyways, and then a pile of book work for the PLUS rating.

They should really change the name. I HATE the use of the word "Advanced".

You ain't "advanced" anything at that stage.

 

[torbaydiver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Of late I have gotten real concerned because there has been a few AOW students injured or killed. If you search this board you'll find plenty of references. There just isn't any sense in doing deep dives unless the student is good at shallow ones.

BTW, you can become an instructor with only one dive below 60 feet. An AOW deep dive can be done at 100 ft. That means that it's possible for a student doing his 5th lifetime dive to go to 100 ft with an instructor who hasn't ever been there either. That might explain some of the antics we see on the deep side of Gilboa. LOL

I totally agree, after doing my Padi open water myself and the rest of the class was recommended by the instructor to move straight on to doing our advanced, No Way was we ready for deep diving, in fact we wasn't ready for shallow diving with uncontrolled assents and descents

I also agree that it shouldn't be called advanced when you can be qualified with less than a dozen dives in your logbook!

 

[seanrollins]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
As a PADI instructor, I am of the opinion that the AOW per the outline is pretty weak. If you combine that with the fact that many students are not prepared it usually amounts to 5 dives with a babysitter.

For those who think they need to take AOW so they can take rescue...
Not true. You can get passed that with a little logged experience in deep and nav.

BTW, you can become an instructor with only one dive below 60 feet. An AOW deep dive can be done at 100 ft. That means that it's possible for a student doing his 5th lifetime dive to go to 100 ft with an instructor who hasn't ever been there either. That might explain some of the antics we see on the deep side of Gilboa. LOL

MikeFerrara,

I've noticed a disatisfaction with PADI on your part in many of your posts since I started hanging around the board. First of all, I would like to remind you that you are a PADI Instructor! PADI is what us instructors make it be. If you have a problem with the way a course is run, or a problem with standards or procedures, it is your responsability to report it to PADI.

Also, I'd like to remind you that as a PADI Instructor, you are not permitted to bash the way that PADI runs their courses, or other PADI Instructors. It is your responsability to promote PADI courses, and back them up since you teach them!

I find it hard to believe that PADI is certifying instructors who have only one dive past 60 feet. The reason I find it hard to believe is because my Instructors Exam was pretty intense, and I couldn'd see anyone who is not a competant safe diver passing through it. With that said, I don't know how IE's are elsewhere. Also, how are you proposing that a PADI student can take Rescue without taking the PADI Advanced class, or an advanced class from another agency? I have seen no standards that allow such things.

On the other side, I agree that the PADI Advanced class could use more depth material wise (see my threads about it). But, the PADI "Advanced" class is designed keeping in mind that a huge portion of it's students are fresh out of Open Water. The point of the course is to offer certified divers more valuable time with an instructor to better their diving skills, not academic skills.

Anyways, don't take this personally, it was just an observation. I think it's highly irresponsible of you to be bashing the worlds largest diving agency in the "Basic Scuba Discussions" part of ScubaBoard. Let's move this to the Instructors Only section if you would like to talk further about it.

Take care,

 

[MikeFerrara]

seanrollins once bubbled...


MikeFerrara,

I've noticed a disatisfaction with PADI on your part in many of your posts since I started hanging around the board. First of all, I would like to remind you that you are a PADI Instructor! PADI is what us instructors make it be. If you have a problem with the way a course is run, or a problem with standards or procedures, it is your responsability to report it to PADI.

I don't single PADI out. My disatisfaction is with recreational training in general. Also, I don't say anything here that I haven't said to PADI.

Also, I'd like to remind you that as a PADI Instructor, you are not permitted to bash the way that PADI runs their courses, or other PADI Instructors. It is your responsability to promote PADI courses, and back them up since you teach them!

Make no mistake, it's not PADI's place to permitted or not permitted me to do anything. I can't and won't promote that which my concience doesn't allow me too. I am not paid a salery to promote anything. When I see instructors getting students hurt on AOW deep dives I'll call it like I see it. If PADI doesn't agree with me, perhaps they'd like to discuss it further. I know I've tried.

I find it hard to believe that PADI is certifying instructors who have only one dive past 60 feet. The reason I find it hard to believe is because my Instructors Exam was pretty intense, and I couldn'd see anyone who is not a competant safe diver passing through it. With that said, I don't know how IE's are elsewhere. Also, how are you proposing that a PADI student can take Rescue without taking the PADI Advanced class, or an advanced class from another agency? I have seen no standards that allow such things.

Why do you find it hard to believe? Check standards, it is possible. As far as instructors being competent and safe, I've witnessed many things in the water that suggest that not all are.

As far as taking rescue without AOW. Again, check standards. The requirement is AOW or equivilant isn't it.

On the other side, I agree that the PADI Advanced class could use more depth material wise (see my threads about it). But, the PADI "Advanced" class is designed keeping in mind that a huge portion of it's students are fresh out of Open Water. The point of the course is to offer certified divers more valuable time with an instructor to better their diving skills, not academic skills.

My point isn't just acdemics though that's part of it. My point is in-water performance requirements. IMO, tieing knots while sitting on a platform shouldn't count, rototelling through a nav course having no idea where your buddy is shouldn't count and divers have no business going deep without having mastered skills shallow without even being taught gas management principles.

Anyways, don't take this personally, it was just an observation. I think it's highly irresponsible of you to be bashing the worlds largest diving agency in the "Basic Scuba Discussions" part of ScubaBoard. Let's move this to the Instructors Only section if you would like to talk further about it.

Take care,

Irresponsible? A few months ago a AOW student at Gilboa lost a fin, sank a few feet (below 100 ft) paniced and punched out. He hit the surface not breathing and without a pulse. One of our own board members had a free flow on an AOW deep dive. With her permission I use her written report as a handout for my students to illustrate the need to be able to handle a free flow midwater. Her, her buddy and the instructor went to the surface. Her computer clocked her max speed at 160 ft per minute. On my last trip to a recreational site a diver was taken away by ambulance after a rapid ascent. On the trip before I had a talk with a little boy who was on a dive where his mother paniced and hit the surface screaming. He watched (buddyless) as his father pulled his screaming mother out of the water. Again I don't single PADI out but if the shoe fits...

Now tell me again who is irresponsible! Lets just discuss it here.

 

[turnerjd]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Now tell me again who is irresponsible! Lets just discuss it here.

I for one don't think that Mike is being irresponsible.

There is very little theory content in the PADI OW and AOW course. A lot of people now do the OW course by home study using the CD-ROM. Providing they get the quiz right nobody cares. Nobody sits down and discusses the implications of what they should have learned are.

I for one care. I DMd for a very consciencious instructor, who unfortunately went out of business simply because he couldn't compete with people that cut the corners, and sell an OW for 1/2 the price. He amazingly held out for a long time simply because he had a large number of repeat customers. Those that went elsewhere for AOW often came back for Rescue - he just didn't get enough people that were prepared to start off correctly.

The problem is that people starting out don't necessarily have the knowledge to realise that they are being sold short.

One of the bigest problems in diving is diver retention. People do OW or OW+AOW and stop. The response from PADI to this dropout is to further dumb down the course. If they had gone the other way, and made the courses harder, then they might have had more sucess.

Sell fewer OWs, but teach them properly. Make them comfortable in the water, make them competent. Then, providing the LDS doesn't shaft them for their equipment, they will stay in the sport.

I think that everything is a bit of a mess at the moment, and unfortunately, when things are in a mess, in general it is money that talks.

Jon T

 

[WaterDawg]

Rice once bubbled...
I'm concerned that I'm going to have to take AOW just so I can take rescue.

Are there instructors that will let you skip AOW?

Rice

Yeah NAUI lets you take Rescue w/o AOW as it should be.

 

[turnerjd]

WaterDawg once bubbled...


Yeah NAUI lets you take Rescue w/o AOW as it should be.

I think that NAUI and PADI are pretty much the same.

For PADI the rule is PADI AOW, or an equivalent AOW from another agency, or documented proof of equivalent experience.

If for example you have never done a deep or night dive, or you have only a limmited number of dives then the instructor might not be too happy accepting you with an equivalent experience.

The standards for equivalent experience (IIRC) are open to interpretation.

Jon T