Is there a valid reason for a pony bottle

[BlueTrin]

I would guess most of us users are owners.
A 2 or 3 liter tank will fit in a carry on bag for travel.

I am not worried about carrying it but about my wife beating me up for getting more ‘clutter’

 

[Ryan Mcshane]

So in conclusion diving with a pony is a result of - a deficiency in skill, lack of teamwork, the inability to plan a dive and monitor your gas, or my personal favourite the “I don’t rely on anyone” because I think I’m Rambo.

Neato!

 

[barth]

I think the original question is wrong. It should be "Can anyone give a valid reason for NOT CARRYING a pony bottle? (Other then wearing doubles.)

Because there is not a realistic scenario possible were I will need one.


(Only for solo diving there is a realistic scenario possible were I need one.)

I hope your loved ones take great comfort in your delusions.

If somebody wants to carry a pony it is his/her choice. But it’s my own choice for not using a pony. For every dive I do, I know the risk and accept. There is always a chance that something can go wrong even if you carry a ponybottle. But I don’t believe I will ever be in a scenario were I will need a ponybottle. ;-)

As both of you guys are based in areas where the water is cool, not cold, I'll cut you some slack....


In these parts, a catastrophic reg freeze-up is a distinct possibility for about 1/2 of the dive season, and a reasonable possibility for the rest of it. And before you dismiss this with a comment about "proper cold water regs" etc, bear in mind that I see this most often in relatively newer divers. Most of us that dive in Tobermory regularly and for an "extended season" wear doubles, or dive SM. It's not because we need the extra gas, it's because we want the redundancy of a completely separate reg and gas supply.


A pony is a simple "entry level" redundant system. When I was actively teaching, I encouraged students to include a pony and cheap, cold water reg as a "required" bit of kit.


To give you a specific example, last spring I was at one of our wreck sites, mid May. The wreck lies in 105' of water, but most of the dive would typically be conducted in 90' or so. Very much an advanced recreational dive. Water temp at the surface at the time of year is typically about 40°/4° and about the same at the bottom, although it can be as low as 37°/3° and it will never be above 42°/5° all year, other then when there's some weird current blowing through.


The morning we were there, there was a charter with I would say 8 divers on it. I didn't know them, but they were all in dry suits, so presumably "advanced" divers. Every single one of them froze up within 10 minutes of heading down. Thankfully, many freeze-ups happen on descent, when a diver makes the mistake of laying on their inflator and inhales at the same time. In those cases, typically, it's pretty simple to beat a hasty retreat to the surface. If you're watching from another boat, you can see the geyser of bubbles long before the diver rockets out of the middle of them. The odd person is completely freaked by the experience. Most are shaken. A few laugh it off, and once in a while, someone embolizes and dies. There was a 31 year old woman that embolized this spring after a freeze-up in 100'. She's been in a vegetative state ever since.


If the freeze-up occurs later in the dive, when the diver is say at 1000 psi and heading back to the upline, he's got a real problem, because that 1000 psi will blow through his regulator very quickly. Plus, he now has the added worry of a potential decompression obligation or close to it. Guaranteed their ascent rate is going to exceed 30 fpm and a safety stop isn't happening. Best case is that they have a near miss. Next best is a bend, and last, is they run out of gas in 60', panic and die. To quote our local Hyperbaric Physician, "We can fix bent. We can't fix dead."


Incidentally, when I worked in Tobermory, and before true cold water regs were really a thing (Other than the Blizzard) double fatalities were common and outnumbered singles. That was because of the proverbial "cascading events"... a freeze-up led to air-sharing which led to double freeze-ups and double embolisms. We lost 12 people in two years here. That was a long time ago, but my recollection is that ever one of them involved a freeze-up and most began with one.


Sorry for the long reply, but a pony and a second reg has the potential to end a serious event. It's not perfect, but it's a great help.


And no matter how well someone maintains their gear, a freeze-up is always possible. I had one at 170' a few years ago, and even with full redundancy in my doubles, AND a slung bottle of 50%, it's a puckering moment. It's great you can shut down one post, but if one reg freezes, the other one likely isn't too far behind, but it sure beats nothing!

I do understand what you mean. But I make other choices, I won’t be in that scenario. If I want to do a dive to 30 meter/100 feet in cold conditions with decompression obligation or close to it I won’t use a single tank. I will use doubles (and a oxygen deco stage). I will keep at least 1200 liter minimum gas. I would not do that dive with a buddy who is using a single tank and a pony bottle.


Last time I was diving a single tank was at Bonaire. I did 10 reefdives with single tank, max depth 30 meter. I also wanted to do a dive at the Hilma Hooker. I brought my regulators for doubles and wing for doubles for that dive. I was sure my buddy was trained for doubles. She was also diving doubles and trained for diving doubles.


For me it is just a single tank for simple dives, max depth 30 meter. If it is not a simple dive anymore, I will use doubles and will be sure that my buddy is well trained for the dive.


I think for my single tank dives there is not a realistic scenario were I will need a pony. If I need more redundancy I need a good buddy and doubles for myself + buddy, a single tank and pony is not enough for that dives.

 

[lowviz]

@Ryan Mcshane , You Scots seem to be a stingy lot. You even cloak your personal info from board members.

So, I'll just have to give you my answer based on your original post. Like many, many others I'm a solo diver. Redundancy and sufficient gas is key to any dive we do. I once stupidly tried to drag my #@#*&^% dive flag under a dock while looking for all the junk that falls into the water while people are getting into their boats. I was a bit long at the party and the tide was picking up. Long story short, I got wrapped around a mussel-covered piling in the dead of night.

Checked my back gas, low but fine. 19 cuft pony says it is full. So now I have options. I'm shallow.

I could cut the dive flag line away, or crawl out of my rig and surface on my pony, or try to untangle the mess. I went with untangle the mess, never once started to get creeped out even though it took a while dragging the flag back against the tide flow. Just a PIA.

THAT is what a pony is for, you never actually use the thing...

 

[markmud]

In the US is it easy to rent a pony ?

I do not own cylinders (mostly because I live in a flat in London) but I do not think I could easily rent a pony in some sites.

Hi BlueTrin,

My pony flies with me. Un cork it and don't put a dust cap over the hole and it is just another container to the TSA. Filling and renting ponies can be a hassle in far off places.

markm

 

[JohnnyC]

I suggest you run some numbers on how much gas is actually in a BCD. Especially if it is not full. And especially if you need some of that gas for buoyancy. It is even smaller than the smallest SpareAir.

You’re not taking gas out of the BCD, you’re exhaling gas into it so that you can rebreathe it on the way up. It will work for a few breaths, and the volume will increase as you ascend.

The idea is that it’s an alternative to trying to successfully perform a CESA. If it’s stupid but it works, it’s not stupid, especially when it comes to saving your own life.

It’s certainly not the first or best option, but it’s a viable alternative. It’s a shame agencies quit teaching the skill.

 

[BlueTrin]

You’re not taking gas out of the BCD, you’re exhaling gas into it so that you can rebreathe it on the way up. It will work for a few breaths, and the volume will increase as you ascend.

The idea is that it’s an alternative to trying to successfully perform a CESA. If it’s stupid but it works, it’s not stupid, especially when it comes to saving your own life.

It’s certainly not the first or best option, but it’s a viable alternative. It’s a shame agencies quit teaching the skill.

I have never thought of breathing the air from a BCD.

Are there any hygiene issues: when I see the state of some rental BCDs, I think I could catch something if I was to breathe in the air coming from them.

 

[Edward3c]

...
It’s certainly not the first or best option, but it’s a viable alternative. It’s a shame agencies quit teaching the skill.

Because the likelihood of legionnaires disease growing in the bag was too high a risk.

 

[JohnnyC]

Because the likelihood of legionnaires disease growing in the bag was too high a risk.

That was one reason PADI gave to Undercurrent it seems, despite being completely untrue.

Besides, you can’t fix drowning. Most other stuff you can.

Here’s a good article on it. It mentions the one, single death reported from a diver who got a lung infection from inhaling from his bcd. It was written by our own DocVikingo.

Emergency Breathing from Your BCD: Undercurrent 06/2011

 

[Gareth J]

The original AP Diving 'Buddy' Jackets came with a 1 litre bottle attached. They where designed so you could breath off the Jacket if required. This approach has fallen out of fashion (not to mention that you needed to clean the bag regularly to avoid catching something nasty), as has the Air2.

When I started, twin cylinder rigs where seldom seen. The small group doing deep diving, or wanting redundancy where using Pony's, that made you a small subset. Over time it became noticeable that the number using pony's increased, at the same time, many of us switched to twins. Then twins with decompression stages, then CCR with bailout.
(In fairness, twins where used back in the day - twin hose regulators - look at the Jacque Cousteau films.)
A lot of the change reflected the progressively deeper diving that was being done, not the extreme depths of the 1%, but the fact that larger and larger numbers where doing 50m diving, or doing mid range dives with long decompression penalties. Nitrox came onto the scene, which was adopted for decompression, before it was used on the shallower dives. Then Trimix.

Even when diving twins, we often used to switch back to singles with pony's for RIB diving. A single with pony was ideal for sub 35m diving, or wreck diving in the confined space of a RIB.
Much over 30m, then twins are a lot more optimal.

As someone also said, a Pony is like a Bailout on CCR, never to be used to extend the dive, used for emergency only.
There should always be sufficient gas to get you off the bottom and to complete any decompression penalty you have acquired. Thats how we used them.
Once you switch to using a Pony for decompression gas then its a stage, not a Pony.

When Nitrox became available, all of us on Twinsets dug our old ponies out and filled them with 50% and bolted them the side. Eventually we went to larger stages, then learnt our lessons and switch to Aluminium stages, much better than steel stages.

I think one of the reasons that few American divers use ponies and have such a negative attitude towards them, is because of the attitude to dives involving decompression.
It goes back to the fact that dives involving decompression are seen as some form of special diving.
In the UK, dives involving decompression are seen as normal recreational diving. As such, most UK divers do some diving with some amount of staged decompression. Because of this decompression diving and redundancy of breathing source is taught within the core diving program (as is Nitrox), and a high proportion of regular UK divers look to add some form of redundancy. Like a lot of divers, many don't want to do deep dives or large amounts of decompression, so twins are not desirable. But a small light cylinder, they can add to their single. With sufficient gas to get them safely back to the surface, is a sensible addition to their recreational diving kit.
In addition, we don't always have clear blue water, and wreck penetration is often part of UK diving (some times accidentally in poor vis'). So redundancy is a sensible addition.

So the simple answer to the original question, is YES. There is often a valid reason for a Pony Bottle.