It's surprisingly hard...

[sabbath999]

Did you know ahead of time it was this guy's first night dive? Had he dived that site previously - particularly THAT day? Did you know ahead of time he was looking to try out new gear, etc?

Clarification just so we are on the same page.

I didn't realize it was his first night dive (I never asked, should have but didn't)... , and the only gear he hadn't used before was the wetsuit (a rental while his new one is backordered... I didn't realize it was a rental until later... honestly, I have never asked a diver "hey, is that your own wetsuit or a rental?"). We had talked for a while, and he has dove several of our local "diving holes" recently although this was his first time here. This is a quarry with a relatively mild hard bottom at around 40 feet for most of it, no current and very little chance of entanglement... in other words, the perfect place to do your first night dive if you are going out with an experienced diver (somebody who had dove there MANY times in difficult conditions).

The "equipment problems" were a bad O-ring following a switching the port for his SPG to one that fit better... this was his personal gear and he had used it before.

 

[BioLogic]

Danger Danger! Warning Warning!

I would not have agreed to go on someone's "first night" dive if they had expected to be using "newly arrived purchases" and would have made that very clear, in a gentle way, right from the start. Night dives are not the place to try out new gear - or overcome "all kinds of minor equipment issues" - even for experienced night divers.

Did you know ahead of time it was this guy's first night dive? Had he dived that site previously - particularly THAT day? Did you know ahead of time he was looking to try out new gear, etc?

As mentioned by others "anybody, any dive, any reason" is the rule of "thumb" and I would have reminded this guy that his likelihood of diving with me was falling rapidly as he started unwrapping unfamiliar gear. At that point the decision to cause ME to thumb the dive would become HIS DECISION.

I buddied with a guy once who told me he was going to bring a spear gun and a camera with him on a deep (145'), low-viz, deco dive. I told him nicely I thought he should bring one or the other, but not both. He said he appreciated my concern, but thought he'd bring them both anyway. I then told him nicely I'd be diving solo if he brought them both. He decided to just bring the spear gun.



Ironically - it turned out he also decided to bring the camera on the dive without telling me. Of course the only way I discovered this is that I found the shiny new clip he used to clip the camera... sitting by itself... in the sand... at 145'... right after he lost the new camera and new housing.

Actually, I don't see how diving with a guy with a BC he only had a couple of dives in (the new gear), a rented wetsuit, and his son's regs (borrowed) is substantially different from diving with someone in rental gear -- which is also within my comfort zone for an easy dive. For me, this was an easy dive, due to the benign nature of the site and my familiarity with it -- and I'm quite used to not being able to see more than a couple feet away anyway I also knew it was his first night dive. I know no better site for it, and I didn't feel a need for much in the way of buddy support, so I was ok with that too.

When he got stressed, however, I lost my comfort with it and thumbed it. I knew I should have, and I did. The point of the post was not to question what I should have done, but to ask if others had also found such situations socially awkward and ask how they'd handled them. To tell the truth, I was kind of surprised at feeling bad for doing what I did and do believe was the right thing, and was curious if this is just a quirk of me or happens to others.

 

[RJP]

Actually, I don't see how diving with a guy with a BC he only had a couple of dives in (the new gear), a rented wetsuit, and his son's regs (borrowed) is substantially different from diving with someone in rental gear...

Even in hindsight?

I wasn't criticizing you. Simply pointing out that the guy getting stressed could have been correctly predicted, and possibly headed off at the pass, before getting to the point of needing to feel socially awkward about it. There are plenty of things that send clear signals long before stress is overtly manifested. You've pointed out three or four things that could have been predictors of potential problems for your buddy, before layering on the fact that it was not only a night dive, but this guy's FIRST night dive.

You did the right thing thumbing it when you got uncomfortable with the situation, and shouldn't feel badly about it. However, as with any dive, you should take the opportunity to break it down after the fact and think about what you and your buddy could have done differently to avert the problem before it occurred.

Ray

 

[TEArrington]

I have felt bad thumbing a dive when stuff starts going wrong and I get stressed about it, meaning I felt sorry that my dive buddy had to leave with me. But I've never felt so bad about it that I stopped calling dives when my gut tells me this isn't a good idea. I've also sat out some dives (e.g., dive 2 on a 2 tank boat dive) when I thumbed the first one and didn't feel like I had resolved my problems. That way my buddy can dive with someone else and enjoy himself.

My regular dive buddies are all awesome and would never make me feel bad about calling a dive. In fact they consistently reinforce good decisions by telling me right after I've called one that I absolutely should call it if I feel it's not going well. Some folks I know occassionally get in a little good natured teasing about me sitting one out, but only because they know me well enough to know I am aware that they are joking and I will be the first one to tell someone else that I think it's smart to sit one out if you don't feel ready to dive. Let 'em dive without me, and hopefully I'll live another day to dive with them again. Without the stress.

 

[Sas]

I wasn't criticizing you. Simply pointing out that the guy getting stressed could have been correctly predicted, and possibly headed off at the pass, before getting to the point of needing to feel socially awkward about it. There are plenty of things that send clear signals long before stress is overtly manifested. You've pointed out three or four things that could have been predictors of potential problems for your buddy, before layering on the fact that it was not only a night dive, but this guy's FIRST night dive.

Yea I can see what you are saying but I often go diving with new divers and have been with many people who have had their first night dive, with rental gear or something like that. I just make sure the site is nice and close to home, it's easy and shallow and if they stress out about things there's going to be no drama getting back to shore or even not diving at all (because there's not a long drive invested). It's a risk that they will get stressed out but it seems like the OP handled it well - worked through the issues, called the dive, chilled out on the surface til the guy calmed down then had a short dive.

I would not have done any differently. And I haven't in the past, been in almost the exact same situation and we ended up floating on the surface talking and joking with some fishermen for a while, and then my buddy was completely destressed and we tried again and had an awesome dive.

 

[BioLogic]

Even in hindsight?

I wasn't criticizing you. Simply pointing out that the guy getting stressed could have been correctly predicted, and possibly headed off at the pass, before getting to the point of needing to feel socially awkward about it. There are plenty of things that send clear signals long before stress is overtly manifested. You've pointed out three or four things that could have been predictors of potential problems for your buddy, before layering on the fact that it was not only a night dive, but this guy's FIRST night dive.

You did the right thing thumbing it when you got uncomfortable with the situation, and shouldn't feel badly about it. However, as with any dive, you should take the opportunity to break it down after the fact and think about what you and your buddy could have done differently to avert the problem before it occurred.

Ray

You make a valid point about I could see potential stressors -- and I did see the potential. I just didn't see it as a given that it would be a problem and was willing to give it a go so long as my comfort level wasn't exceeded.

As to averting it; perhaps someone smoother than I could have managed it. I did try to help, mostly by stressing that I was quite fine with taking the time and sorting things out properly (which I was). I think it was worrying about ruining *my* dive that was stressing him more than anything else. My efforts fell short of the mark though.

And to answer your question, in hindsight: No, it still seems to me to be essentially the same as a person using a full set of new-to-him rental gear. I do not live in a diving mecca and the spots I can usually get to are most popular with less experienced divers, so I suppose I'm used to people still in the process of collecting their gear. That by itself doesn't scare me off. (Not like the guy who showed up last year with his new regs. No hoses or SPG, just the regs......)

 

[emoreira]

Every one diving with rental gear is like diving with new gear for the first time, but with a drawback. New gear could probably work Ok, rental gear is more or less gear with thousand dives done by people who cares nothing about that gear.

 

[spectrum]

I happen to take a special interest in diving with new divers. There's a big difference between making novice dives while someone is sorting out skills and gear and executing a more challenging dive with a diver who is still sorting things out. It comes down to making the right dive for the objective.

Way too many divers are jazzed with toting a camera, diving doubles, hunting with a spear gun (scary!) going deep and other tier 2 skills before they can handle the basics. At some point if the dive exceeds the skill then the task loading can be the breaking point.

When it comes to calling a dive you need to be true to yourself. I have made some dives more conservative than planned after seeing the buddy in the water. I have aborted for visibility when a buddy just would not stay in range. I have also sat out dives for conditions and personal mood, energy level or whatever. In some ways it's like that drinking line you hear. If you're making the dive because you NEED to then maybe you shouldn't. Wait for a day when you WANT to. That can be personal guidance but it's also an attitude to watch for in your buddy.

Pete

 

[Steve50]

And to answer your question, in hindsight: No, it still seems to me to be essentially the same as a person using a full set of new-to-him rental gear. I do not live in a diving mecca and the spots I can usually get to are most popular with less experienced divers, so I suppose I'm used to people still in the process of collecting their gear. That by itself doesn't scare me off. (Not like the guy who showed up last year with his new regs. No hoses or SPG, just the regs......)

LOL - the new hoseless 2nd stages

 

[fnfalman]

When I buddy up with an insta-buddy, I make sure that the insta-buddy understands that when either of us want to thumb a dive, that's going to be that. We can whine & moan about it after the dive is terminated.