Jacket BC or Wing BC

[-hh]

I would not equate a BP/W to a Lamborghini either.. Heck, just add a crotch strap to a properly fitted back-inflate and the difference may be more akin to comparing Nike to Adidas running shoes.

Agreed, although to humorously abuse the analogy, what the BP/W has in common with the Italian sports car is that both are equally a pain to get in/out of.

I don’t think any diver, regardless of their skill or gear configuration could keep up with any of those animals unless that animal lets us. (But you knew that already)

A typical diver's swimming speed is usually 0.5-1mph, and it takes a lot of work to get going at ~2mph. The fastest underwater humans are the teams in the underwater submarine races ... they top out at ~6knots max across short (10 meters short) measured distances.

Well then you can call me a purist then, however I seem to be able to do all of the above regardless of the gear I use. I've said this many times, gear selection will not make you a better diver, training and practice will.

Same here, but only because Dan put a twist to change my original use of the word 'purist'. I was referring to the semantics of making a big deal over how a wing is strapped onto a diver, and all of the contrived ruckus over if it is a single piece of webbing or if it also has a shoulder quick release, etc.

There you go equating gear selection with skill or a desire to be a better diver again. Lazy divers are just that, lazy - despite the gear they strap on.

Agreed. While having good gear is an enabler for superior diving, one doesn't become a superior diver simply because of the gear you happen to buy...that's pure marketing hype.


-hh

 

[DevonDiver]

Agreed, although to humorously abuse the analogy, what the BP/W has in common with the Italian sports car is that both are equally a pain to get in/out of.

A failure of the user, not the equipment.

To further abuse the analogy - the biggest issue with an Italian sports car is that it is restricted in internal size - making it unsuitable for any user that doesn't conform to the sizing restrictions of the equipment.

BP&W... being infinitely adjustable and modifiable, is the antithesis of this. In fact, it is the jacket BCD which has the most constraint in adjustment and sizing.

Indeed, when a user expresses difficulty getting in/out of a harness that is infinitely personally adjustable... and has the capacity to be rapidly and cheaply modified to the user's unique specifications - then one can only assume that a level of user fallibility is the root problem behind the issue.

While having good gear is an enabler for superior diving, one doesn't become a superior diver simply because of the gear you happen to buy...that's pure marketing hype.

Agreed. Gear can improve diving, but not necessarily the diver. However, it can be a catalyst for becoming a better diver - where use of such equipment encourages the diver to consider the underlying factors necessary to use that gear most effectively.

It's hard to dive BP&W in ignorance. As such, it won't ever be a popular choice with the 'once a year' demographic.... but those who have reason and motivation to opt for such a configuration are also likely to find that the equipment choice will spur them towards a more complete understanding of diving skill.

Chicken and Egg. Do 'good' divers choose BP&W, or does BP&W create good divers?

 

[randytay]

 

[-hh]

A failure of the user, not the equipment.

To further abuse the analogy - the biggest issue with an Italian sports car is that it is restricted in internal size - making it unsuitable for any user that doesn't conform to the sizing restrictions of the equipment.

Actually, that's not where I was going. A classical exotic sports car is inherently going to have a low center of gravity, which means that the driver's seat is also very low and as such, the car isn't as easy to get in/out of. It isn't impossible to get out of...its just not necessarily as easy as some other vehicles. For the purist sports driver, the low seat and the entry/exit hassles simply has to be accepted as a necessary consequence of his decision to have a vehicle with a low CG for superior performance.

Now applying this observation to the classical ('purist') BP/W, its harness system is a single continous strap with basically only one buckle release. It isn't impossible to get in/out of...just not necessarily as easy as an "extra bells & whistles" commercial BC which has Quick Releases on both shoulders and webbing length adjusters all over the place too.

...

Most of this probably belongs in another topic area. There's always going to be trade-offs in anything that's selected, and it is simply a question of working through the details to identify what's important and what's more negotiable. For example, based on my professional knwledge of the 5th-95th percentiles of adult male & female anthropometric dimensions, claims of "infinite" adjustability start to sound like Requirements Gold Plating to my cynical ears...even if it is true (I'll have to ponder it for awhile, thinking about the numbers of degrees of freedom inherent to various harness setups) And similarly, there's also a difference between being able to "quickly" make an adjustment during pre-dive setup versus making an adjustment during a dive. I think I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not particularly optimistic in claiming that a harness with one adjustment point on its single piece of webbing is somehow "better" than a jacket which probably has four adjustable straps, plus a couple of shoulder Quick Releases.

Chicken and Egg. Do 'good' divers choose BP&W, or does BP&W create good divers?

Neither, because good divers are able to choose what's most appropriate for their needs. Of course, the recent history of the BP/W comes mostly from the Technical community, where there's both good divers ... and doubles. Since a BP/W is the better choice for doubles...well, at least until we start to consider the new emerging Tek trend for using sidemounts...wee!

-hh

 

[danvolker]

A typical diver's swimming speed is usually 0.5-1mph, and it takes a lot of work to get going at ~2mph. The fastest underwater humans are the teams in the underwater submarine races ... they top out at ~6knots max across short (10 meters short) measured distances.




-hh

Really...Why don't you scientifically figure out how fast I was going for over 20 minutes while filming this :
Start a little more than 2 minutes in Dolphins on Pauls Reef WMV 7 Mbps 1080p - YouTube
Bottlenose dolphins foraging along reef...I estimate their speed at about 4.5 mph to 5 average, perhaps more, but they go left and right enough to slightly slow forward progress down..

Bp/wing....fastest freedive fins ( DiveR's) at 100% max cruising propulsion effort to assist/turbo charge a Gavin scooter, with video camera on top.

Stab jacket or other vest would have been impossible to accomplish this with. But this response is about how fast divers can go in the water, and be doing something fun while going fast.
I offer this because in so many of these threads, there are so many people saying, : "there is NO reason to go fast underwater, and every reason to go slow"...or something like this...
I think we should be able to go slow, fast, medium or hover, all with as much perfection as possible.
There are many marine life encounters where you need to get over 2.5 mph to be part of them. Some considerably over this speed. I have many more videos to prove this with--with experiences that most divers WOULD WANT!

 

[BDSC]

I guess I'm a little confused here. Are you saying you were or were not using a scooter when you were following?

 

[danvolker]

I guess I'm a little confused here. Are you saying you were or were not using a scooter when you were following?

I was using a scooter, and adding about 2 mph to it's speed with the DiveR's....
HH was talking about very slow scuba divers, and he was talking about human powered submarines....but mostly he was indicating that there is no utility in going over about 1.5 mph.... I strongly disagree !!

 

[DevonDiver]

Stab jacket or other vest would have been impossible to accomplish this with. But this response is about how fast divers can go in the water, and be doing something fun while going fast.
I offer this because in so many of these threads, there are so many people saying, : "there is NO reason to go fast underwater, and every reason to go slow"...or something like this...
I think we should be able to go slow, fast, medium or hover, all with as much perfection as possible.

I don't see streamlining in respect of 'top speed'. I see it as a means to efficiency of effort underwater... in particular, the effectiveness of 'kick-and-glide' at normal cruising speed.

In that respect, I notice a much longer 'glide' when wearing BP&W, compared to a jacket BCD. That's important and relevant for me, as it should be to any diver.

As an example, I normally demonstrate 'streamlining' and the 'kick-and-glide' with intermediate level students by removing my fins and frog-kicking leisurely across the reef. As a result, many 'jacket-wearing' students (with fins) are surprised at how efficient propulsion can be in the water - some can't keep up (seriously) and others are just surprised at how much speed I can comfortable maintain (keeping up with them). When they replicate...remove their fins... they won't go anywhere. Booyah!

... the car isn't as easy to get in/out of. It isn't impossible to get out of...its just not necessarily as easy as some other vehicles

Did you ever see Pavarotti driving a Lamborghini?

Can you imagine him diving a jacket BCD?

there's also a difference between being able to "quickly" make an adjustment during pre-dive setup versus making an adjustment during a dive.

You don't need to adjust a rig during a dive - unless that rig has a variable buoyancy that effects the fit of the BCD.... like a jacket BCD does.

All those QR buckles, dangling straps and bits of plastic... are just a solution to a problem caused inherently by the BCD design itself.

Adding a problem, to resolve a problem... never seems like a 'win-win' solution to me....

Since a BP/W is the better choice for doubles...

Doubles and singles aren't exclusive. I think there's merit in the supposition that a configuration that is 'ideal' for doubles, is probably also excellent for singles. Doubles being, of course, far more demanding in terms of harness fit, comfort, streamlining and trim etc....

Back to car analogies again: The 'anti-lock brakes' and other innovative safety features on your daily use family car all originate from the 'high demand' activities of Formula 1 racing etc.. Likewise, NASA etc has consistently developed technology and practices that 'trickle down' into daily life.

Where there is a 'high-end', 'high-function' or 'high-risk' activity - it is a feeder for technology, practices and procedures into 'low-end' or routine activities. Such is the case for technical and cave diving. The percolation of BP&W (and now sidemount) from the technical edge to the recreational mainstream is illustrative of that trend.

IMHO, any recreational diver who believes that BP&W is "only for tech" is just as wrong as back-wards thinking, change-resistant, motorist who might say that ABS technology is "just for car racing".

 

[-hh]

I guess I'm a little confused here. Are you saying you were or were not using a scooter when you were following?

Confusion was the objective, since that serves to distract readers from the fact that despite a decade of claims of "best streamlined" gear, there's still no scientific data to back up such claims.

No Data measured either by time free swimming a distance...

Or pulled by a scooter...

Or even while being pulled behind Lee Bell's powerboat (out of West Palm, FL) with a fishscale to measure drag...

Or as gear loaned for a Senior Design project at SIT (Stevens Institute of Technology)...

All true.

There's been ample opportunities offered to go measure hard data ... but the ones making the claims have somehow been able to bail out of every such offered opportunity to cut the BS by using the scientific process.

Dan knows all of this, and if I happen to remind him of it on ScubaBoard, we get twists such as how I allegedly indicated that there is no utility in going over about 1.5 mph. Sorry, but I suggested no such thing: please Cease & Desist, Dan.


-hh

 

[randytay]

I was just wondering if there was any empirical data that shows that there was NO streamlining and thatnit makes no difference whatsoever when one switch to bp/w. it's only fair the burden of proof go both ways. I don't have hard numbers but I must be on a huge dose of placebos when I switched.