Jacket BC or Wing BC

[BDSC]

No need to imagine any picture, since a fellow SB'er posted the real thing of me on a dive earlier this month; here's a re-link:

You're not fooling anyone with that picture hh! It had been doctored! The milk jugs are missing.

 

[danvolker]

No worries Dan ... BTW, speaking of keeping you on your toes, do you still have your business relationship with Brownie and/or Halcyon? Afterall, clear disclosures of potential conflicts of interest are in the public interest of the readership.

In the late 90's I worked for Halcyon as marketing DIR...Not since. I do have some Tookas I bought from Brownies, but my having them does not make me an employee

You try to make it sound like you're the only person in the world who has ever dived in currents.




Don't you remember???? I've already been to Boynton Beach (a mere!!! 15!!!! miles south)!!!!

It is great that you have been to Boynton, but that is our approximation of a still water dive portion of Palm Beach. The current in Boynton is typically from half of what is is north of the Palm Beach Inlet, to having the north area currents as much as 3 times bigger. It is just not related at all to the "Wilderness Dives" we have....

And the reality is, very few people I have ever met on Scubaboard, have ever dived anything like the advanced currents of our Wilderness dives...For that matter, most divers don't really know how to handle this if they do most of their diving in Fort Lauderdale....Palm Beach has some very distinct zones, and if you visit, and if I take you to one of these.....I just hope you don't get pissed at me for taking you there

 

[Splitlip]

No worries Dan ... BTW, speaking of keeping you on your toes, do you still have your business relationship with Brownie and/or Halcyon? Afterall, clear disclosures of potential conflicts of interest are in the public interest of the readership.




No need to imagine any picture, since a fellow SB'er posted the real thing of me on a dive earlier this month; here's a re-link:

Golly, all of those danglies are just horrible, particularly that big orange 6ft SMB with finger spool. And that trim position..tsk, tsk! And look at all of the bottom kicked up ... and why are the fins arranged that way? They're not in the correct orientation for a flutter kick! Egads, what a bad, bad, bad diver.




You try to make it sound like you're the only person in the world who has ever dived in currents.




Since I've already done a few hundred dives with a wing, are you really going to try the argument that I simply wasn't using the correct brand? So then tell me Dan, just which brand is the right one? Is it the Oxycheq stuff? Oh, wait, they're out in Washington State, so that can't be the right one...

Seriously, the only gear loan I'm really interested in is one where it is available to be dragged through the towing tank at Stevens Institute of Technology as part of an ungraduate engineering project (with written report) for the 2012-13 school year. Just let me know. I'm sure that Scott would be quite interested in putting his stuff up in a real head-to-head test against his old boss's products.





Don't you remember???? I've already been to Boynton Beach (a mere!!! 15!!!! miles south)!!!!

But I might be in the neighborhood again soon anyway to make a social call, as I need to visit a friend in the area. They're a personal priority and since we have other things booked, if we're able to do it soon, it is likely to become a quick Fri-Sun trip, which makes it hard to also squeeze in a dive.


-hh

I've no dog in this fight, but there is a huge difference between the rather benign Boynton sites and the Northern Palm Beach County drifts of which Dan is speaking.

 

[-hh]

...
It is great that you have been to Boynton, but that is our approximation of a still water dive portion of Palm Beach. The current in Boynton is typically from half of what is is north of the Palm Beach Inlet, to having the north area currents as much as 3 times bigger. It is just not related at all to the "Wilderness Dives" we have....

2x to 3x? Okay, so then it's similar to a good day in the Galapagos.

And the reality is, very few people I have ever met on Scubaboard, have ever dived anything like the advanced currents of our Wilderness dives...For that matter, most divers don't really know how to handle this if they do most of their diving in Fort Lauderdale...

Yes, diving in currents is yet another diving sub-speciality niche. Of course, if you're drifting along with them, there is no equipment drag issue...its only when one needs to oppose them that it can be an issue, and as you've already pointed out, brains can trump braun by understanding flow boundary layers & using local topology to your advantage: it isn't uncommon to be actually able to reduce one's air consumption despite going deeper to get to the bottom to exploit lower current strength.

There's a lot of little 'tricks' like this that can be found in varying dive conditions. Another such topic is to learn how to exploit wave surge for one's propulsion instead of trying to fight against it, by dynamically adjusting how "draggy" you are.


-hh

---------- Post added ----------

You're not fooling anyone with that picture hh! It had been doctored! The milk jugs are missing.

Man! Can't get anything by you guys.

Okay, okay...here's the REAL deal:



Satisfied now?


-hh

 

[danvolker]

2x to 3x? Okay, so then it's similar to a good day in the Galapagos.

Perhaps..though I understand many very average dives enjoy the Galapagos sites, and this would NOT be possible in our "Wilderness Sites" off of Palm Beach.

Yes, diving in currents is yet another diving sub-speciality niche. Of course, if you're drifting along with them, there is no equipment drag issue...its only when one needs to oppose them that it can be an issue, and as you've already pointed out, brains can trump braun by understanding flow boundary layers & using local topology to your advantage: it isn't uncommon to be actually able to reduce one's air consumption despite going deeper to get to the bottom to exploit lower current strength.

The big currents take you over a huge distance, and this is great....when you do need to deviate...to video some marine life, this is where the challenge begins....As you say, now you must use the topography and slow water on the bottom....AND, you absolutely must be geared to have the lowest drag possible. A Milk Jug BC will not cut it here Having fins and fitness that can propel you in this environment is important, and this is another area where most divers really are lacking.

 

[danvolker]

I just heard about a dive that happened about 3 weeks ago off of Palm Beach...this on one of our best "Wilderness Dives", though with it's depth, it is also an advanced diver only category to begin with...This dive is called the "Hole in the Wall"....The name refers to the solution cave that runs through a huge ledge...top of ledge is around 110 feet deep, bottom of ledge at about 149 feet.... Bottom of cave about 140.

The cave is about 9 feet high, very big around throughout...it runs about 70 feet and comes back out further down the ledge. Huge fish and schools are attracted to this cave and structure. Goliath Groupers, tiger sharks in a lethargic semi sleeping condition ( the current blows through the cave, so any shark can lie down on the bottom here and sleep). This site is far enough out to have "Pelagic Mixing" taking place, where deep ocean schools of fish like Kingfish ( by the ten thousands) will blow by the deep ledge, intersecting the dive trajectories of the divers. Many other pelagics are commonly seen here, though there is no promise that every dive here will deliver the monstrous scools from the deep ocean...it is more like 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 that get to a National Geographic moment for the divers....the others are just very cool, with plenty of big stuff, but without the huge pelagic schools.

On this dive I heard about, the Gulf Stream was really in...the water was an amazing blue, with well over 120 foot vis...But the current from the Gulf Stream intrusion was huge, likely over 5 mph mid water collumn.

The "good divers" with bp/wings and good streamlinging ( and this includes some well streamlined vest BC wearers were having no trouble staying by the bottom and hugging the ledge close....when they drifted/ flew up top the huge cave opening, they used the structure contour to help them get into the cave, and then the huge boulders on the floor inside the cave, to hide on the lee side of the current, and to take their time in the cave..and to watch all the life that was accumulating due to a huge current and lee side attractions.

The "normal" divers, even though skilled in tropical destinations with tiny currents, drifted along avout 5 feet off the bottom, and about 6 or 7 feet away from the ledge wall....when they approached the cave opening, most of these swam hard for a moment, then realized they were like leafs in the wind, with no real propulsion of their own, i this environment....so they continued on, missing the cave, just going where the ocean took them.

This is the "Wilderness Dive" issue. Divers go all over the caribean or the pacific, but never really learn currents. Sure some of the Nat Geo type shooters have this all figured out, but the typical well heeled dive tourist is going EXCLUSIVELY to destinations that are TAME...they are like ZOOS for the masses....they are not the REAL WILDERNESS. Part of this is advertising and the big print magazines....they can only do stories on places the "masses" can handle....essentially petting zoo type destinations. They need the big numbers.....Palm Beach has petting zoo dive sites also...but what the masses have no clue about, is what the real wilderness diving is like...and the training and gear it takes to enjoy this

 

[Bombay High]

If the currents get strong I just make myself a foothold

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I've done the Hole in the Wall dozens of times.. (in a "normal" BC) I even use a jacket BC out past the hole in the wall where the currents are stronger.... Hell I even did it with you Dan and you were wearing a POS jacket BC, as I recall..

 

[-hh]

Perhaps..though I understand many very average dives enjoy the Galapagos sites, and this would NOT be possible in our "Wilderness Sites" off of Palm Beach.

I was alluding to Wolf & Darwin, which are a bit more advanced. In any case, I'll see if I can dig out my old 35mm slides to look for any images that I might have from which the currents can be estimaetd by the angle of diver exhaust bubbles ... my recollection is that at times, the big ones (~150fpm ascent rate reference) were hung out at 30 degrees and the tiny bubbles (~60fpm ascent rate reference) were going virtually straight back.

I just heard about a dive that happened about 3 weeks ago off of Palm Beach...this on one of our best "Wilderness Dives", though with it's depth, it is also an advanced diver only category to begin with...This dive is called the "Hole in the Wall"....The name refers to the solution cave that runs through a huge ledge...top of ledge is around 110 feet deep, bottom of ledge at about 149 feet.... Bottom of cave about 140.

I've heard mention of Hole in the Wall before. This is a better description; 30ft of vertical relief is plenty of topology to have eddies to exploit, etc.

The "good divers" with bp/wings and good streamlinging ( and this includes some well streamlined vest BC wearers were having no trouble staying by the bottom and hugging the ledge close....when they drifted/ flew up top the huge cave opening, they used the structure contour to help them get into the cave, and then the huge boulders on the floor inside the cave, to hide on the lee side of the current, and to take their time in the cave..and to watch all the life that was accumulating due to a huge current and lee side attractions.

And I'll bet that none of them were using Force Fins, which is what I was alluding to earlier: it isn't that each of these factors don't play a part, but it is that some are more important than others. Here, you effectively admit that, by illustrating that where the diver chose to strategically position themselves was important.

This is the "Wilderness Dive" issue. Divers go all over the caribean or the pacific, but never really learn currents.

I hear that there's a new island in Mexico that's been discovered .. I think it is called Cozumel, or something like that.

And as that SB thread points out, there's also opportunities for divers to exaggerate. For a similar example, it isn't uncommon in the Caymans for diveboat customers to be told that the depth off of the wall's dropoff is 3,000 ft ... 5,000 ft ... 8,000 ft ... or even 25,000 ft (Cayman Trench). of course, a real navigational map with soundings reveals that these are exaggerations: it's "only" ~1000ft within swimming distances. Sure, that's still more than rec diving depths, but it is no longer the "Big Fish That Got Away" fairy tale.



-hh

 

[danvolker]

I've done the Hole in the Wall dozens of times.. (in a "normal" BC) I even use a jacket BC out past the hole in the wall where the currents are stronger.... Hell I even did it with you Dan and you were wearing a POS jacket BC, as I recall..

And of course, you DID read where I said " ( and this includes some well streamlined vest BC wearers " , indicating that the Hole in the wall is enjoyed by non-bp/wing divers.....I mean really, we did the Cave all through the 80's and 90's till around 97 with vests.....but we were way more streamlined, and without danglies, than standard fare Caribbean destination divers. Part was knowing how to use the structure and where currents are fast or slow, and part was using gear that was as slick as possible.

---------- Post added ----------

I've heard mention of Hole in the Wall before. This is a better description; 30ft of vertical relief is plenty of topology to have eddies to exploit, etc.

Here, you effectively admit that, by illustrating that where the diver chose to strategically position themselves was important.



I hear that there's a new island in Mexico that's been discovered .. I think it is called Cozumel, or something like that.

-hh

HH, you are not getting "admissions" out of me...I am freely discussing the real issues, and of course a diver with current skills will use the structures and currents at different depths....And they will also opt for gear which is slick...typically, when a diver figures this out, they really don't want to go back to milk jug bc's or pufferfish styled BC's...

Cozumel is a place that print magazines talk up as if it had real currents....Compared to pettting zoo dives, yes, they have currents. Compared to Wilderness dives off Palm Beach, Cozumel is a petting Zoo, and the Cozumel divers don't really know Drift diving as an advanced skill. We could teach the Mexicans, but there is no incentive for that