LDS loyalty?

[theatis]

Hi guys,

I'm relatively new here; i've been reading the forums for some time but only started a thread a few days ago when i started to think about buying my own gear. I've been thinking about this whole LDS business very hard for some time now given that i have to make many choices soon. As a foreigner (from a place where there are MANY dive shops) living in the US for the past decade i think i can give a different perspective. First off, let me say in very big letters I DON'T MEAN TO INVALIDATE ANYONE'S EXPERIENCES THAT CONFLICT WITH MINE.

I'm from a Greek island where the diving business is organized in the same way that hvulin from Croatia described above: major importers (usually in associated industries like yacht importers) distribute and for the most part sell equipment, smaller dive shops sell some equipment (usually somewhat overpriced) but make most of their money from actual diving which is plentiful due to tourism, and dive clubs (usually loosely associated with specific shops) arrange for tertiary association of people.

When i decided to certify (in the US by the way) i went around to get acquainted with the shops in the area and the people that operate them. Here are my experiences in chronological order:

1) I went to the biggest LDS in the city. I happened to know a diver who worked there a long time ago, before i even thought of getting certified. Unbeknownst to me, that diver later left and affiliated himself with an opposing LDS (a laughable idea in itself) so the owner's demeanor changed immediately at the mention of his name. He immediately lost a potential client.

2) I went to the aforementioned opposing LDS (as i later found out, i went without that knowledge) where the owner proceeded to try and convince me that i really needed another brand than the one i was interested in. I told him that i wasn't even remotely interested since that brand is not locally represented on my island and i would like to buy equipment that i am certain to be able to service locally in the future. His response was (and i am totally serious about this): "Don't worry, servicing a regulator is a piece of cake, i'll just teach you and you can do it yourself." He said this to a guy who just told him that he is currently in OW classes! I cannot possibly take someone like that seriously.

3) I went to a third shop where the store clerk did not know the prices of the regs that i was interested in. He also was not at all aware of the differences between the two models that i asked about. When the customer (a newbie at that!) knows more than the seller we have an obvious problem. As we left the store my girlfriend's exact words were "Would you trust these people to work on equipment that your life depends on?" But that's not all; i left my phone number and i get a call from them the other day that they have one of the models in stock. The price that they quoted me ("Special" according to them) was more than twice the price that i can find it online!

Maybe it's just my luck but this makes no sense to me at all. ALL of the dive shop owners that i have interacted with on my island are friendly, welcoming people; they seem to be aware that their livelihood depends on it! Also, and this may have a lot to do with the striking comparison to the situation here in the US, they don't see themselves as competing over everything. First of all, with the level of tourism on the island, there is never a shortage of business so they don't feel that they depend on equipment sales. For example, the shop that all my friends use (and i suspect i will in the future) sells only Scubapro. Inevitably, not everyone that goes there owns Scubapro. The owner is still willing to service everything that he can at a reasonable price. To my knowledge, he or any other owner that i know of has never pressured a client. The reason is simple: on a relatively small island, reputation is everything.

After three consecutive strikeouts, i bought my snorkeling equipment online, will buy my BP/W (based on valuable and courteous information and contacts that i made on this very board) in a few days and will look to buy my regs from an internet-based shop in the near future. After such souring experiences, my LDS will eventually be on the other side of the Atlantic.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Scubajcf and I are fortunate to have a shop where the customer is treated like a customer should be treated. If they stick around long enough they are treated like family. I believe that our shop... for the most part... IS concerned about our customers as divers and, more importantly, as people. Why? It makes good business sense... and... we're just pretty descent folks.

If it's truly like that, you are very fortunate. I haven't found a shop like that yet. Tucson only has 2 shops and, although one is a better than the other, it still has its moments. The problem there is that I've never made the big $2-3k purchase from them. I make lots of small purchases. I've spent close to $10k in the last 2 years on gear and education. But since most of my gear purchases are on the smaller end, I end up having to wait for everyone else in the store to be helped first. And this was the case before I became a pro with them!

Concern for me as a diver? Maybe. But more likely will be the comments on the non recreational diving I do.

I've found a shop in the Phoenix area that is a little more like yours, but being a couple hours away, I still haven't gotten the family feeling. This is understandable, though. I'm only there once every couple of months or so. I have bought gear from them and have had regs and tanks serviced there (the Tucson LDS doesn't "know" how to 100% O2 service). I'll also be going on a trip with them in 2006. That trip may change things. (Although the trip with the Tucson LDS only changed things for about 2 weeks after the trip.)

Now I'm using a different shop in Phoenix for fills because they're convenient (location) and have hydrocarbon free air. I've only been there a couple of times, but haven't gotten the feeling that they are the "family" type.

Anyway, like I said, you guys are lucky. PM me your shop's name. I'll stop by next time I'm in that area, which is at least once a month.

 

[Dive-aholic]

MY LDS is concerned about their divers. I have witnessed, on more than one occasion, adjustments to equipment, free of charge. I've also seen them tell a diver to bring in their equipment, bought elsewhere, and help them make adjustments to it that make it fit better, or perform better. My LDS tries to build a dive community, by hosting a board similar to SB, where we set up dives, discuss trips or whatever. Bottomline is, not all LDSs are the Evil Empire like so many of you try to make them out to be.

I agree, not all are bad. I was just stating I haven't found one like that. You, as well as a few others, are lucky to have shops like that. Those shops are rare, though.

Personally, I use the same garage for all my cars. I did business with the guy with my Honda, and when I traded it and got my Jeep, stayed with him. Why?? I can trust him. Do you really go to a different shop everytime you need an oil change?
I've also had the same guy servicing my boiler for years, use the same pool guy year after year, and have the same primary physician and dentist. I guess I'm just strange that way. They treat me well, I trust them, and in return, I show them loyalty. I don't believe my LDS is expecting anything different.
C-Dawg

I haven't found any businesses I have relationships like that with. I do my own basic vehicle maintenance. I used to have a regular garage in a town I lived in previously, but I remained loyal to them because they did good work. I didn't feel like the loyalty was necessarily returned, and I didn't feel guilty about taking my vehicles somewhere else when they couldn't fit me in right away. And they had no problems with that! This is the phenomenon we're talking about. It's not the loyalty to someone who does good business; it's the guilt trip if you don't use them every single time. Will your mechanic give you a guilt trip if he can't get you in until next week, but you need your car running tomorrow? Will your boiler guy give you a guilt trip if he can't get to your house for a couple of days, but you need it fixed today because it's going to be below freezing tonight? I doubt in either case they would. And I think you would call someone else to get the job done and not feel guilty. Will your LDS give you the same courtesy?

 

[GreenDiverDown]

...

Now I'm using a different shop in Phoenix for fills because they're convenient (location) and have hydrocarbon free air. I've only been there a couple of times, but haven't gotten the feeling that they are the "family" type.

Anyway, like I said, you guys are lucky. PM me your shop's name. I'll stop by next time I'm in that area, which is at least once a month.

Ya.. I don't know that the "family" feeling would be immediately obvious to a new customer. It sorta depends on who's working at the time and who else is in the store. Don't get me wrong... I think we TRY to treat every customer in a professional manner and I think that most of the staff are good at making new folks feel welcome. But some staff are better than others at helping new folks feel special.

When things are 'right'... the right staff, the right customers, the right day, etc... it would be obvious, I suppose. Otherwise, it's a matter of being around a while. But even just hanging out in the shop for part of the day you would likely see it... most of us... customers and staff... are all very good friends.

I guess a lot of the bonding occurs because we experience so many things together. We all have scuba in common but we have so much more than that. We dive together, we travel together, we share trying times together, and we party together. We help each other with projects around our houses and we watch each others' kids. Whether it's a ping-pong tournament, a night at the bar next door, a motorcycle trip, or just hanging out at the shop to shoot the breeze, we just spend time... together. Over time that translates into some pretty strong relationships and it indeed becomes very much like a family.

I'm not saying our shop is perfect... we're far from that! But we do have a good bunch.

Here we are... http://www.scubaspecialties.com/index.htm

(Don't make too many judgements by our web site. It's a bit lacking... although I'm hoping that my son will bring it up to speed... soon!)

John... (scubajcf) teaches there. I rarely do... in fact, I don't know what I do there, anymore... but... I am there a lot.

 

[jeckyll]

Ya.. I don't know that the "family" feeling would be immediately obvious to a new customer. It sorta depends on who's working at the time and who else is in the store. .... . But some staff are better than others at helping new folks feel special. ...

I find the same thing at the shop I frequent, some people are naturally better suited for dealing with certain customers. I feel comfortable just stopping by and chatting with them about how to setup my gear, changes I'm thinking about etc. Generally, I've purchased most of my gear there but will go elsewhere when the price difference is to large. (ex. I bought my dive lights from scubatoys, but drysuit & BP/W from the shop after shopping around)

I also appreciate that they try to run a business & that they need to ensure the overhead is met etc.

 

[DivePartner1]

". . . This may sound extreme... but it is not such a stretch from the truth. Around here, if you do business with one shop... then another... word gets out... and next thing you know you're treated differently. You're seen as the scum of the earth. I hope that this doesn't happen everywhere... but it sure does in Baltimore, MD...QUOTE]

That's close to my experience, and shame on them. I got my first C-Card with a Baltimore shop but wouldn't buy there. Their attitude was pretty much 'get the hell out of my store' unless you were asking about a high end item. Then you were their best friend in a kind of oily, creepy way.

The simple fact is dive shops are vendors, not our best friends. Most are hanging on for dear life on the narrow margins that they make selling new gear. I've never met a dive shop that wasn't flawed in some respect, either by resenting anything they didn't sell, taking sales pressure beyond the limits of good manners (in situations where those rules apply, ie. outside of the shop). And of course, 'no it all' instructors or staff (often relative newbies) who claim that anything they don't sell is junk. My personal favorite was a PADI seller who told me my SSI/Navy Dive Table would kill me --- about a week before problems with the PADI tables became public. Sorry pal, I'll stick with what I know.

The point is simple. As customers we have the power. With the internet, they need us way more than we need them. If they don't get that loyalty is a two way street they deserve to go the way of the buggy whip manufacturer.

We can find community on these boards and others and groups we meet at dive locations. Need community? Just go out and dive!!!

 

[Vtdiver2]

This is the phenomenon we're talking about. It's not the loyalty to someone who does good business; it's the guilt trip if you don't use them every single time. Will your mechanic give you a guilt trip if he can't get you in until next week, but you need your car running tomorrow? Will your boiler guy give you a guilt trip if he can't get to your house for a couple of days, but you need it fixed today because it's going to be below freezing tonight? I doubt in either case they would. And I think you would call someone else to get the job done and not feel guilty. Will your LDS give you the same courtesy?

I agree with you,that there are shops out there that are very posessive, and I don't see that as being a good business trait. Luckily mine isn't that way. I've bought gear online from an online supplier that my LDS recommended. I asked my instructor, who works full time for the shop, where he got his piece of gear. He told me they couldn''t afford to buy $10K worth of stuff to have that line in the shop, so he bought his online and told me where. Like I said, I feel lucky to have a shop like that. It's also why I do feel loyal to them, because I feel....no, I KNOW they have my best interest at heart.
Regarding those shops that give you the guilt trip......no, I wouldn't feel loyal to them either. They aren't only a bad dive shop, they are bad businessmen that give the industry a bad name.
To answer KALVYN's initial question.....why are you loyal to your LDS?....I'd have to answer like the old Smith Barney TV commercial...."they make money the old fashioned way...they earn it!" My LDS treats me in a way that I WANT to be loyal to them.
C-Dawg

 

[DivePartner1]

. . . . I'd love to tell them both to pack sand, but I need at least one shop to provide air, and eventually the gear I bought will need service. I really enjoy diving (what little I've done), but this treatment is making me regret getting involved with it at all. . . . .

Buggy whip manufacturers, both of them!

I don't know where you are from but don't jump to the conclusion that these two knuckle heads are your only two options. Search on the internet say, 30 or 40 miles from where you live, or near where you might dive. In the DC area, some quarries I dive are several states away and have local shops, I've found places for refills for ocean diving in unlikely places in Delaware.

Also, if you don't feel comfortable with these shops for training, look outside the box. Perhaps groups like NAUI and YMCA have lists that can help locate good training and if all else fails, move dive resorts would LOVE to provide these course.

Frankly, I think its nuts to go into the dive shop business for most that are in it, but don't let them ruin the experience for you. Stick with it!

 

[Vtdiver2]

I'd love to tell them both to pack sand, but I need at least one shop to provide air, and eventually the gear I bought will need service.

Have you considered looking around for airfills. One source is a Volunteer Fire Dept. One dive shop I used to go to has his compressor set up at the Fire Dept. He bought the compressor and then set it up at the Fire Dept and they use it and buy their refills off him, helping him to pay off the compressor. When I needed a fill from him, I'd meet him at the fire station. You might be able to do the same kind of thing with one of your local depts. It could be a small source of revenue for them.
Just a thought,
C-Dawg

 

[Mike Nelson]

Not intending to start any kind of flame war, but I'd like to respond to a couple of vtdiver2's comments:

Bottomline is, not all LDSs are the Evil Empire like so many of you try to make them out to be.

I don't think that anyone here is making blanket negative statements about dive shops. Some create a good customer experience some a bad one. As I posted in the other thread, I've had some of each.

Personally, I use the same garage for all my cars. I did business with the guy with my Honda, and when I traded it and got my Jeep, stayed with him. Why?? I can trust him. Do you really go to a different shop everytime you need an oil change?
I've also had the same guy servicing my boiler for years, use the same pool guy year after year, and have the same primary physician and dentist. I guess I'm just strange that way. They treat me well, I trust them, and in return, I show them loyalty. I don't believe my LDS is expecting anything different.
C-Dawg

Fact is, I do use the same auto mechanic, dentist, and doctor. I do show them some customer loyalty - but if my auto mechanic happens to see a Jiffy Lube sticker in my window from my last oil change he doesn't pitch a fit either. As my optometrist continued to rape me for eyeglasses, I started going online to buy mine - same exact ones - for hundreds less. Can't get service, you might think? His optician sucked anyway - I'll fix 'em myself.

I don't think it's out of line for any business to hope to generate repeat customer revenue. In fact, it's an excellent strategy. To do that they need to provide superior customer service, good prices, decent inventory and a variety of other differentiators. But to expect your loyalty and get all bent if you stray from the path: that's what is chapping a lot of us. Picking up a new set of fins from a competing LDS isn't exactly in the same league with cheating on your spouse.