LDS Scare Tactics?

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If you're concerned about service, you might contact this place in N.C. that does mail order reg service, (there's a recent thread, something like "online reg service") or some other service tech not selling regs and ask them about taking regs with no warranty. You'll find they have no problem.

Here's a twist; I bought my first SP reg new at the LDS that I took my OW course at, specifically because I was concerned about warranty and service. Now that I know that store better, I would not take the reg to them for service. Instead I found a tech whose work I really trust. Soooo... the whole idea of establishing a relationship with the LDS for service reasons is dependent on them having a tech who you want to trust with the reg in the first place.

If you search, try "LDS vs online" or "leisurepro" and you'll have enough reading for most of the summer, hence the groan when you started this thread. Have fun!!
 
mattboy:
If you're concerned about service, you might contact this place in N.C. that does mail order reg service, (there's a recent thread, something like "online reg service") or some other service tech not selling regs and ask them about taking regs with no warranty. You'll find they have no problem.

Here's a twist; I bought my first SP reg new at the LDS that I took my OW course at, specifically because I was concerned about warranty and service. Now that I know that store better, I would not take the reg to them for service. Instead I found a tech whose work I really trust. Soooo... the whole idea of establishing a relationship with the LDS for service reasons is dependent on them having a tech who you want to trust with the reg in the first place.

If you search, try "LDS vs online" or "leisurepro" and you'll have enough reading for most of the summer, hence the groan when you started this thread. Have fun!!

Yea, I apologize for the redundant post re: the great online debate... I'm just getting into this whole dive thing, but I'm taking it seriously and having lots of fun. I promise to be a little more thought provoking / contributive / interesting in the future!
 
reefraff [INDENT:
It makes sense to treat every person with respect but if the customer ain't profitable, they need to be politely shown the door.

I'm not sure I understand this concept of an unprofitable customer. Are you refering to those customers that are shoplifting or taking all the free samples? Or do you mean those customers that just don't spend as much as you would like (require) them to spend. If the LDS is actually sustaining losses with some customers, like a hospital or medical practice, are they not entittled to the same tax write-offs and deductions? (Maybe it's really not a fair analogy.)

I got to wonder if I went into McDonald's and only orderd a sausage biscut with no drink, might they throw me out for not making the profit quota?

Bottom line is some diveshops will say pretty wild things to intimidate customers to spend more money. And it may have worked OK 10 years ago. But as new divers realize the opportunities they have as customers, I hope these shady operations receive their just reward.

A good shop should be happy to just pump gas if that is all the customer needs. It is still a couple hundred a year that would not have been passing thru the cash register, otherwise.
 
awap:
I'm not sure I understand this concept of an unprofitable customer. Are you refering to those customers that are shoplifting or taking all the free samples? Or do you mean those customers that just don't spend as much as you would like (require) them to spend. If the LDS is actually sustaining losses with some customers, like a hospital or medical practice, are they not entittled to the same tax write-offs and deductions? (Maybe it's really not a fair analogy.)

I got to wonder if I went into McDonald's and only orderd a sausage biscut with no drink, might they throw me out for not making the profit quota?

Bottom line is some diveshops will say pretty wild things to intimidate customers to spend more money. And it may have worked OK 10 years ago. But as new divers realize the opportunities they have as customers, I hope these shady operations receive their just reward.

A good shop should be happy to just pump gas if that is all the customer needs. It is still a couple hundred a year that would not have been passing thru the cash register, otherwise.

Indeed. My (semi)LDS is quite comfortable with selling me what I want, and only what I want. They know flat out that I repair my own gear, and in fact gave(yes, gave) me some of that gear. They also know that, because I am happy, they are first on the list for service on stuff I can't do, and sales in terms of trips and training. A little money from me(and a lot of word of mouth advertising, because I am positively gushing when it comes to diving) is worth more than none.
 
Not to mention the oppurtunity for the LDS to sell travel and additional "stuff". When I cross the mountains into the Puget Sound area I have about 30 dive shops that I can deal with. If they don't treat me right or have something to offer, I don't waste their time and mine by kicking tires. Every dive shop should treat you like you might buy "something". That's just good business. Can you imagine a Ford dealer treating you poorly cuz you drive in in a Chev. If nothing else their service department still wants you.

adios
 
awap:
I'm not sure I understand this concept of an unprofitable customer. Are you refering to those customers that are shoplifting or taking all the free samples? Or do you mean those customers that just don't spend as much as you would like (require) them to spend. If the LDS is actually sustaining losses with some customers, like a hospital or medical practice, are they not entittled to the same tax write-offs and deductions? (Maybe it's really not a fair analogy.)

I got to wonder if I went into McDonald's and only orderd a sausage biscut with no drink, might they throw me out for not making the profit quota?

Bottom line is some diveshops will say pretty wild things to intimidate customers to spend more money. And it may have worked OK 10 years ago. But as new divers realize the opportunities they have as customers, I hope these shady operations receive their just reward.

A good shop should be happy to just pump gas if that is all the customer needs. It is still a couple hundred a year that would not have been passing thru the cash register, otherwise.
Very true.
Some shops don't understand it yet that even if you're not the perfect costumer today, that if they'll treat you fairly, you may be that costumer tomorrow. OTOH, if they'll treat you poorly, there's no incentive for the costumer to become the costumer the dive shop wants him to be. This is very shortsighted business practice.
Some shops expect loyalty from costumer just because they are there. Loyalty isn't something you can demand, it's something that has to be earned just like respect but it has to be there on both sides.
 
You don't get the complete warranty from online shops regardless of what these internet shoppers are telling you. I instruct for a shop that sells aqua lung. Here's the deal. Whe buying from a shop you get discounted service and more importantly FREE PARTS FOR LIFE.

Send your reg off the aqua lung and yes they'll do warranty work on it and they will even service it BUT you'll pay big time for this service.
 
I'm not sure I understand this concept of an unprofitable customer. Are you refering to those customers that are shoplifting or taking all the free samples? Or do you mean those customers that just don't spend as much as you would like (require) them to spend. If the LDS is actually sustaining losses with some customers, like a hospital or medical practice, are they not entittled to the same tax write-offs and deductions? (Maybe it's really not a fair analogy.)

Shoplifters aren't customers, they're thieves. I'm referring to the guy that comes in and spends an hour looking at every mask and fin in the store and then jots down the model numbers so that he can go buy it on the internet. That same guy that buys his regulator from DiveInn and then expects "his" local shop to assemble and tune it for him for free - or who gets upset because he can't get the same free parts that the shop provides to customers who paid the ante and bought the regulator from the shop. I'm talking about the guy who comes in every week expecting the shop to drop everything to fill his two tanks while he waits and spends the time he's there pumping the "dive shop monkeys" for information about everything from gear to skills and then complains about his $14 tab. I'm talking about the guy that won't take the drysuit class or nitrox class because "nobody needs it" but will spend an hour standing around reading the manuals without paying for them. Every customer represents an investment of money (and remember, time is money) that has to be justified. The only possible justification is revenues and some customers don't return enough to warrant the investment. Hard and cold, but true. Even worse, the nickel and dime customers often serve to distract from the dollar customers. As to the write-offs you mentioned, you have to have profits to take write-offs against. You can't take a deduction from a loss.​

I got to wonder if I went into McDonald's and only orderd a sausage biscut with no drink, might they throw me out for not making the profit quota?

The closest McDonald's to me is one of the busiest McDonalds in the world. Their policy (posted in a number of highly visible places) is that your purchase gets you 45 minutes in your seat and then, if you want to stay, you are expected to return to the counter and buy some more. How many nightclubs have a cover charge or a two-drink minimum? Have you ever tried to hang around for an hour or two after the Jiffy Lube guys finished your car, chatting up the staff? To answer your question, yes - they can and should throw you out (nicely, politely, without malice) if you aren't spending enough money to justify the space and time you're taking up. That's hard and cold, but so is cash.​

Bottom line is some diveshops will say pretty wild things to intimidate customers to spend more money. And it may have worked OK 10 years ago. But as new divers realize the opportunities they have as customers, I hope these shady operations receive their just reward.

I couldn't agree more. Customers (even prospective customers) should be treated fairly, honestly and with respect. Customers should also be expect that this is a two-way street and treat the shop the same way. If you walk in the door and the shop doesn't see dollar signs, sooner or later your relationship with that shop is going to fail. Shops that don't understand this are going to fail, customers that don't understand this are going to end up wondering why they can't find a shop to take care of them.​

A good shop should be happy to just pump gas if that is all the customer needs. It is still a couple hundred a year that would not have been passing thru the cash register, otherwise.

Of course, most dive shops will tell you that they don't make any money from fills and that they run their fill station as a loss-leader - the cost of providing you with those fills isn't covered by the couple of hundred dollars you spend. The shop is providing the fills because their business model says you will spend money on other things while you're getting fills. If that isn't the case - if you aren't buying other things and are only using them for fills, why would they continue to pay for your diving habit?

Even if the shop makes money off your fills, there remains the problem of the minnows and the whales. You think the shop should be happy to take care of you and your several hundred dollars a year in expenditures; I'm inclined to agree, until you're in line ahead of me. Your annual gas bill won't cover many of my weekly gas bills and, with a dive budget that runs well into five figures every year, I think that I have earned some preferential treatment. If you are the shop owner and you have to choose (and sometimes a choice is required) which one of us gets taken care of first, what would you do? There is a danger to the shop in allowing the minnows to distract them from making sure that the whales are happy.

Just so we're clear, I have nothing against the online shops and spend a fair amount of money with them. Right now, however, the relationship between the local dive shops and the divers is seriously out of whack: witness the number of dive shop failures over the past few years and the number of whinging threads like this from divers. Divers are demanding lower costs but are unwilling to accept lower levels of service from their local dive shop, resulting in a level of frustration on both sides of the transaction. Dive shops have been unable to cope with the loss of profits and haven't been able to bring themselves to correct their business model to compete effectively with the interent dealers that are eating their lunch. The internet dealers can compete on the cost of gear sales but are unable to meet the divers demands for ancilliary services. Sooner or later the equation will balance, we should all be prepared for fewer shops, cheaper gear and far more expensive service and training.​
 
reefraff:
[]Of course, most dive shops will tell you that they don't make any money from fills and that they run their fill station as a loss-leader - the cost of providing you with those fills isn't covered by the couple of hundred dollars you spend. The shop is providing the fills because their business model says you will spend money on other things while you're getting fills. If that isn't the case - if you aren't buying other things and are only using them for fills, why would they continue to pay for your diving habit?

Even if the shop makes money off your fills, there remains the problem of the minnows and the whales. You think the shop should be happy to take care of you and your several hundred dollars a year in expenditures; I'm inclined to agree, until you're in line ahead of me. Your annual gas bill won't cover many of my weekly gas bills and, with a dive budget that runs well into five figures every year, I think that I have earned some preferential treatment. If you are the shop owner and you have to choose (and sometimes a choice is required) which one of us gets taken care of first, what would you do? There is a danger to the shop in allowing the minnows to distract them from making sure that the whales are happy.

Just so we're clear, I have nothing against the online shops and spend a fair amount of money with them. Right now, however, the relationship between the local dive shops and the divers is seriously out of whack: witness the number of dive shop failures over the past few years and the number of whinging threads like this from divers. Divers are demanding lower costs but are unwilling to accept lower levels of service from their local dive shop, resulting in a level of frustration on both sides of the transaction. Dive shops have been unable to cope with the loss of profits and haven't been able to bring themselves to correct their business model to compete effectively with the interent dealers that are eating their lunch. The internet dealers can compete on the cost of gear sales but are unable to meet the divers demands for ancilliary services. Sooner or later the equation will balance, we should all be prepared for fewer shops, cheaper gear and far more expensive service and training. [/INDENT]

Shop I deal with is a very small shop (a line means 2 customers) but he has 2 compressors that he picked up from failed shops. I've told him he is a buck cheaper than his competition but he says that's good. He does not claim to be lossing $$ on air. He does routinely beat his local competition's prices.

I don't spend a lot of money there. Air and tank maintenance mostly and an occasional service kit or accessory. (He says there are very few DIYers and they will find parts someplace and he would rather have the $10 profit than 0.) I buy most of my gear used. But when I do go for something new he is happy to get a shot. We both use the same car dealership -- the guy with the best price. When I do run into someone looking for an LDS, that's where I send them. If it were not for his internet presence, he'd probably be in trouble. Looks to me like most successful shops are going to have to embrace the dark side or miss the bus.

While I have no doubt that the customer from hell that you describe is real, I just can't imagine them being very common. (Then again, our eateries don't put a timer on your table. Some even welcome their local vagrant who sips a cup of coffee much of the morning.) Hard to believe that they could be enough of a problem to influence a business model. Any LDS's with a cover charge yet? Maybe this bad customer is really more a manifestation of a shop's frustrations and failings than a real obstacle to a profitable business.
 
ScubaDru:
First, Thanks all for the info! I've been sorta reading/watching from the curtains for a while and wanted to start becoming more active in discussion. Not that I have alot to offer...
Not that that ever stopped anyone else from posting, myself included :11ztongue

I participarted in one of these LDS vs Online threads a month or two ago when I was making my purchasing decisions. In my case, my LDS was offering a rebate off my $150 OW class fee if I purchased a full set of Scubapro Gear with an additional 10% discount (max discount allowed by Scubapro). I went ahead and purchased the gear for my self and son and I'm happy with the gear and the LDS. The warrenty issues concerned me with an online shop and I plan to continue diving with this shop on weekends and this is where I'll get my air fills.
Now with that said, if my other son takes up diving and I'm into buying another set of gear, I'm likely to go with scubatoys.com as they will match online pricing AND provide manufacturers warrenty. I think I would be satisfied with another brand of equipment like Oceanic or (*Insert your fav brand here*) that they sell and I would be comfortabel shipping a rig to them for service, but they are only 1 state away from me.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

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