LDS Scare Tactics?

[RiverRat]

The problem is many LDS' need to take some serious marketing or business classes and learn how to deal with people. There is nothing wrong with giving some incentives and expidited service to the heavy hitters but you gotta treat ALL customers with respect.
I recall speaking to an LDS owner about how a new regulator was coming out with "self adjustable" IP settings (we know all regs are adjustable but this made it idiot proof) and he stated to the effect "what are they (manufacturers) trying to do to us!" It's obvious he likes the "dumbed down" customers. Divers that are not self sufficient. If you don't know how a reg works you gotta pay to have it serviced. I can understand gaining profitibility in this market segment (some folks can't or don't want to service their own gear, that's fine) but I think that overall attitude is BAD for the scuba business. This is not golf. This is a serious sport with serious implications if you screw up. Divers should not be treated like idiots because they don't happen to follow the LDS model. And they should be given ACCURATE information when they ask a question. Not some lame LDS BS wive's tales so they get "forced" into buying something that is not right for them! Sooner or later they'll figure out you screwed them and it will do MORE HARM than good to your business. That being said, I'm sure they see MANY idiots in the shops that just drive them crazy but still, the customer is always right. And if you happen to be a self sufficient diver that wants to rebuild your own gear, or buy something that the LDS does not sell or recommend, then so be it! TARGET your sales to this type of diver! Chances are he may become a tech diver (lots of expensive gear here) and may need advanced training or something. I've only been diving 2 years but I've NEVER seen such a screwed up business. There do seem to be some shops out there that are getting the message and are doing VERY well by the way.

 

[DrSteve]

Oh boy this is all sooo true. Case in point when I got recertified I had a huge problem with the shop I signed up with. SSI stepped in (at my request) and arranged for me to take the class with Michael at Aquaventures in Cockeysville, MD (plus for Mike here) at the same rate - even a touch reduced as I had already had some training and he gave me a nice T shirt. I purchased my first set of gear used, my BC from LeisurePro (but I did check out Mike's prices - way too much for me). However, last time I drove through MD I made a point of a pit stop at Mike's shop (I now live some 300 miles away) and purchased a few small odds and sods. Stuff I could have bought locally for about the same price, but I recognised that Mike did me a favour and he is a good guy, so he got a little extra business from me. My ex-LDS has recently made a habit of being awkward. They lost my business and my referrals. But, guess what? I just referred 2 friends who live about 15 miles from him for scuba classes.

 

[WarmWaterDiver]

I find it interesting that all the discussions on discounted service, free parts for life, and manufacturer's warranty here haven't touched on something you just posted - pre-owned gear. As we all know, most everything in consumer goods depreciates (how much less is a new car worth as soon as the papers are signed and the wheels leave the lot, since the Ford and Chevy discussion took place earlier?). I've never owned a dive shop, but have been a part owner in a small business, which participated in both sales of new goods and resale of pre-owned goods. Here's what I don't have a good handle on from this thread.

Would a typical dive shop or dive goods manufacturer's insurance disallow a manufacturer's authorized service center shop to service gear made by that manufacturer that wasn't brought in by the original owner?

Does any manufacturer require a higher service fee structure to service that manufacturer's gear if not brought in by the original owner?

I could understand a shop choosing to have a discounted service structure for goods brought in for service by the original owner, especially if the original purchase was made at that shop, but some posts, like Al's, leave me wondering on what the specific manufacturers' policies are, particularly Aqua Lung since that's the brand Al quoted, and since I do own a few Aqua Lung regulator sets in my plethora of dive gear.

Personally, I'd find such a business model fairly abhorrent - like Chrysler under Lee Iacocca's guidance in the 80's. Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge specifically quit making OEM parts available for their collectible muscle cars, because Iacocca's philosophy was 'If we keep making parts for the old ones, we won't sell enough new ones'. Some of us well remember such winners as the Reliant K car as one example. Time has certainly told the tale, now that Chrysler is the second name in the company - Daimler Chrysler, and a big part of the efforts to capture market share are offerings with things like Hemi engines now . . .

 

[lairdb]

I won't dispute most of your post; I can't, most of your post is Business 101. However,

Divers are demanding lower costs but are unwilling to accept lower levels of service from their local dive shop, resulting in a level of frustration on both
sides of the transaction.

...I think you've got this one wrong. Divers are demanding lower prices, because they're already receiving lower levels of service from their local dive shop.

Every time we have this discussion, it's clear that there are divers who are perfectly willing to pay higher prices for better service. Indeed, I think the vast majority are willing. At the same time, it's clear that the vast majority have never experienced better service, and when they experience acceptable service (e.g. LeisurePro, DiveInn) coupled with good prices, they don't see why they should pay more to be treated worse.

Sure, there are exceptions -- there are high-service stores. Despite it being a self-reporting sample, I think the discussions here indicate that they're the rare exception. Those respondents who are happy to pay full (or nominal) prices, are happy to do so because they experience the service levels that they value.

 

[Hoosier]

Just leave the stupid LDS alone. They are just barking to rip off the customers by threatening with the unreasonable tactics. They will be out of business soon. Actually, they know what they are doing.

BTW, ScubaDru, don’t waste your time to deal with the stupid LDS. You had better search this board and contact other LDS. We also have many non-stupid SBers who can help you out at the reasonable price. Bob3 and Larry are also good source.

 

[JS1scuba]

I recently emailed a LDS in Michigan where I live asking about their Apeks regs. I was looking for a package similar to one I have my eye on @ scubastore.com:
Apeks DS4 w/ ATX50 and ATX40 octo. I just got an email back from this particular store with most of the usual support your LDS "encouragement". But then he raises two issues that I just find highly questionable.

1st: "The Aqua Lung warranty is only available through U.S. authorized dealers and represents a major savings over gray market products."

2nd: "If you choose to purchase Aqua Lung products from an unauthorized dealer you will not be able to get service for the product because of insurance issues."

The Brick and Mortar - PDC that I own Scuba Training and Technology Inc. in AZ is an authorized Aqualung / Apeks dealer.

The guys you talked to have an issue that this board or for that matter anyone will never solve. But here's the scoop so you know it straight up.

An authorized Aqualung USA dealer is restricted in how he/she can advertize, price, and sell products. In advertisements there is a MRP Minimum Retail Price that can be presented. This also applies to signs in stores etc. Also you cannot conduct the transaction through a web site / shopping cart system. (this is why you dont find aqualung products on my website) All transactions are to take place in the PDC so that the consumer can see and select the appropriate product with the dealers help.

Certain products are MRP (manufacturers retail price) of which these items cannot be sold or advertized with discounts greater than 10%. IS this enforceable ... yes and no. The law says i can sell anything i own for whatever I want. My agreement with AL says I need to abide by the pricing structure. For the most part the value of the products and the pricing is pretty reasonable, when looking at top end products.

The A/L USA warranty is specific to USA purchased products from authorized dealers. For example Liesure Pro is NOT an authorized dealer. As such no products they sell that bear the A/L Suunto, Apeks etc label will be covered under any circuimstances.

The USA warranty is pretty valuable. When serviced under the plan the regulator products have parts for life. Regulators require an inspection every other year and an overhaul every other year. Year one an inspection and test, year two a complete overhaul. Unless the dealer belives it needs an overhaul then it can be done.

We had a regulator in the other day that was a "non" covered product. The reg ovehaul is $45 bucks thats all we charge, the parts ran over $75 This wold have been covered. A customer sent in a regulator with a Vytec computer today. The transmitter is shot for some reason and its only 3 mos old. A new transmitter is $500 bucks ..ouch.

I'm sorry that dealer did not understand the concept of "hello, I would like to buy this from you today" and make the accomodation.

As to his item # 2 ..... horsecrap. The quality insurers of our business could give a ratts tail as to who or what or how we sell so long as its honest. Fraud is not covered. Also I can service whatever i like. And we do service most every brand product out there. If your product is covered under a warranty that we are authorized for we will gladly provide those warranty services. Send me a non USA A/L product -- we will service it but you will pay for parts.

There will always be someone who will sell A/L products ,and Scuba Pro products online cheaper than you can buy it from a PDC. Just make sure that the products you are comparing are EXACTLY the same, talk to your PDC and i am sure some kind of reasonable middle ground will happen.

Best of luck

 

[ScubaDru]

We had a regulator in the other day that was a "non" covered product. The reg ovehaul is $45 bucks thats all we charge, the parts ran over $75 This wold have been covered. A customer sent in a regulator with a Vytec computer today. The transmitter is shot for some reason and its only 3 mos old. A new transmitter is $500 bucks ..ouch.

First off, thanks for the all the discussion, its great and I think its only for the better that questions like these are addressed and understood. And I also feel like I'm back in my philosophy class! : )

1. Regarding the cost of repairs... for regs that DON"T offer free parts for life like Poseidon, aren't people gonna end up paying the same amount (both parts and labor) for their annual checkups, regardless of where they bought it? If this is the case, it would seem to make no difference, in terms of post-purchase expenditure, if the regs were bought from an authorized dealer, or from leisurepro. It seems in the case of Poseidon, it makes SENSE to buy online.

2. Regarding the warranty... If I bought a nice new AI wireless computer from leisurepro, and it croaked in 3 months, would they not replace it? I have read much more postive than negative things about online operations being good at honoring their "stand in" warranty, where they, instead of the manufacturer, guarantee the product free from defects. Is this wrong?

 

[mxracer19]

Yeah I've heard a lot of good things about how leisurepro.com honors warrenties. They dont have a MANUFACTURERS warrenty...but they have THEIR OWN. Theres more than one way to skin a cat, and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for a license to Kill it in the first place.


-Matt

 

[JungleJoe]

You are all seeing the effects of the "Death of the Mom and Pop Dive Shop"

It's simple... As time goes on, you will see more and more dive shops close.

The only ones left are the ones that are savvy enough to create a different company and sell on the internet.

They sell to their own "company" which can then sell however they want on the internet, if something needs service, you send it back to the online dive store, and ultimately it ends up at the "real" dive store.

Look at any of the larger dive stores, Scubatoys, DiveUS, DiscountDivers, etc... per the manufacturer, they CANT under their store, sell at certain prices, nor can they do business on the internet or Ebay. So they make a new company and get around it that way. Want proof, look at what company your credit card is charged with, or who they tell you to put down on the warranty card, it's not the online store !!!!!

but not all dive shops can do this, the ones that dont, will die off.

What do we lose when this happens as it already is. Around here 4 shops have closed in the last 3 years.

We lose air fills
We lose training (which is NOT a money maker for the shop unless they do the quickie courses)
We lose the ability to fondle the items we are thinking of buying, try things on for fit etc.

What SHOULD happen is the dive community should push to allow dive shops to compete on the internet directly to level the playing field, instead of having a few here and there that already started doing this.

I've talked to alot of shops, the ones that do the twin business and sell on the net, guess what ???? The internet side carries the store. The store is running in the red always, and the internet is where the profit is. So that keeps them afloat. They can take a regulator, call it a demo, advertise it under the MAP pricing to lure in a buyer, then sell them a new one for a similar price. How do I know this, because It's happend to me. They offer 05 models at low prices, just ask, and you can get an 06 for the same price. or near it.

Warranty ??? Depends on the brand, some warranties only cover the parts, which are pretty cheap on alot of regs, you still have to pay labor. With the money you save on the initial purchase, you can have your stuff serviced "out of warranty" several times over.

Leisurepro, breaks the rules, the manufacturers let them buy direct due to huge volume, is that fair to the mom and pop dive shops ??? NO, but all they want is the money. Face it, LP can order 100 dive computers. a mom and pop can't.

In 5 years or more, there will be at least I predict 50% less dive shops in the US.

Where are the new people going to get certified ?????

Where are you going to get your air ???

I'm already a master diver, I dont want the liability of DM or more, not with this sue happy world we live in. I have my own compressor (thank god !) So I'll survive. But unless the manufacturers let the shops sell direct on the net, they are going to disappear. I think that alot of you have seen this happening over the last 5-10 years, how many shops do you know that have closed up ???

And think of this..... Since the crop of "new divers" will shrink, then who is going to buy all this neat scuba gear ???? I think the manufacturers are killing their own dive shops who are their interface to the public. When they are gone and only a few a left.. JUST THINK OF THE IMPACT THIS WILL HAVE ON THE DIVING COMMUNITY ?????

 

[beach89]

Originally I sided with the online stores because the first shop I went to charged twice what I'd pay online. Then I went to a different one that charged at most $50 over online sources AND would give me a 30% discount if I bought my gear there. Needless to say, I'm going there whenever I need to buy something.