LDS vs on-line purchase?

[stakanak]

Anything over MSRP is constituting a haggle. If the shop owner will not be talked down, he is a jackass and will soon be out of business.
I have never even heard of any retail charging more than MSRP.
Get Wet!

 

[udtfire]

so the suit is item 200 20% is 40 bucks shipping add 10 bucks or so so now we are 30 bucks and when the lds is not there next year try to get an air fill on line or try on a wet suit on line
oh thats rite you already took up his time effort and knowledge for free a service he provides to his customers so whos wrong in there vision of the lds you or the dive shop and next time you need a class let me know so I can pay you to come take my class
that seem to be the thinking in the dive world today. we are in a small social club not just a hoppy support your local divers and they will be there for you

 

[redacted]

so the suit is item 200 20% is 40 bucks shipping add 10 bucks or so so now we are 30 bucks and when the lds is not there next year try to get an air fill on line or try on a wet suit on line
oh thats rite you already took up his time effort and knowledge for free a service he provides to his customers so whos wrong in there vision of the lds you or the dive shop and next time you need a class let me know so I can pay you to come take my class
that seem to be the thinking in the dive world today. we are in a small social club not just a hoppy support your local divers and they will be there for you

Wetsuits are really quite easy to try on online. Call a dealer like Scubatoys and he will send you 2 or 3 to chose from. Air is a different story. But look around. There are just very few places where a bad shop can hold you hostage because there is just no other options on getting air. Bad shops with the attitude you seem to profess need to be put out of business so good shops have a better chance.

I just can't get over the idea of retailers and their minions who think they are doing the world a favor by charging uncompetitive prices.

 

[scubafanatic]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. The person who learns his craft, has a depth of experience, and offers a full range of services is quite different from some guy who throws out a site with some pics and a price. The two business models are very different, and while some might do both, one does not beget the other.

One example Sports Authority, although you could argue they do not do "full service" of anything like we expect a LDS to do (and don't even sell SCUBA gear really). The retail chain and SportsAuthority.com are NOT even the same company. (the former merely licenses their name to the latter).

My LDS has an indoor pool for testing gear, does trips to the local lake, offers classes, lets me try on things, does air fills, etc. That all costs money. The internet guy has to cover none of that overhead, so sure he CAN sell it cheaper (often they don't actually DO it).

Local dive shops are not ever going to "evolve" into what they are not and do not need to become. Obviously, if you don't see value in what your local dive shop does, then don't buy there. But if you do, and you want them to treat you like a good customer, you have to be one. Dive shop owners are human beings too, and they appreciate loyalty.

That said...I order almost everything I can on-line. Books, appliances, electronics...the list is endless. Why? Best Buy and Walmart add no value whatsoever for me. I have been shopping Amazon since 1996. But again, there is no brick-and-mortar retailer of those items anywhere who can do anything but trade the item I want for my dollars. I don't want their advice, they can't service the product, and they won't let me take the item out of the box much less test it, so there's no point - there's no value add.

Local dive shops are a different species.

It has been my experience that most LDS's don't carry significant levels of inventory and usually end up having to order things for me anyway, so why pay MSRP PLUS local sales taxes when I can get something delivered to me significantly below MSRP/no sales tax/free freight/faster ETA via the WWW ?

Some brands aren't carried by discount places like LP/Scubatoys (Halcyon for example) so I'll go ahead and throw some business to a LDS since the LDS prices are the same as the WWW prices anyway......or if I feel I might need LDS technical support (dry suit training for a new drysuit, or help figuring out some fancy new dive computer...or configuring some new gear)

Luckily Scubatoys is a LDS (45 min drive one way) for me, so I've done the bulk of my buying from them for a while now....competitive pricing/free shipping/large inventoryand good service....plus, they are first in line to receive items from suppliers due to the volume of business they do, so stuff they do have to order for me isn't on backorder forever like it would be if I ordered from a small shop.

 

[scubafanatic]

Thanks guys for all the excellent responses to my question. Just to clarify a few points:

The shop in question is not in the Ventura area. Like I said, the shop is "somewhat near me" but not really local.

I do value the services and facilities that a local dive shop offers, and if this item had been available at MSRP it would be in my gear bag now. It's the 20% over that made me hesitate, and I still haven't bought either on line or at this shop.

I'm a little reluctant to bargain on this item just because I don't do it well. Last time I made an offer (not at this shop) the response was "the price is as marked, this isn't a swap meet". Hey, I'm a sensitive guy and that hurt.

Thanks again for the discussion.

I don't like to do the 'haggle' thing either, I prefer shops that 'volunteer' their discounts and don't make me have to ask for them. Anyone who would dare to use the 'this ain't a swap meet!" comment on me would immediately cross them off my list!

My personality is such that when I get pissed off, I don't get loud or make a big production out of it.....I get REALLY quiet, withdrawn, I'll slip away and you'll NEVER see me again, I just disappear....and spend all my money at competitors shops.

 

[DeusVerto]

(text edited for brevity)
I'm a little reluctant to bargain on this item just because I don't do it well. Last time I made an offer (not at this shop) the response was "the price is as marked, this isn't a swap meet". Hey, I'm a sensitive guy and that hurt.

Thanks again for the discussion.

While I am in favor of supporting your LDS, that sort of comment from any person trying to earn a living in retail sales demonstrates something between extreme incompetence and sociopathology.

A LDS has to earn your business like any other business, and that also means being competitive. MSRP usually represents a 30% margin on large items and as much as 60% on smaller accessories. Smart retailers (and many aren't) realize that their investment in inventory is a function of the aggregate margin actualized MULTIPLIED by the number of "turns". Things that sit in stock longer lower their ROI unless they make higher profit margins. That's how discounters make money; they operate on lower margins and turn quicker, resulting in equal or better ROI. Grocery stores make money at 3% because they turn their inventory dollars in just a few days.

A dive shop owner would expect a new reg to sit on the shelf maybe a month before he sells it. To get the same ROI as the grocery man, he has to get 30% margin. However, I have seen retailers make the classic mistake of keeping the price firm no matter how long something sits there...and they end up bungling themselves out of business. 100% margin times zero turns = Chapter 11.

Unless an item is hard to find and in high demand, turning that item NOW versus some uncertain time in the future has value for a shop owner who knows how to run his business. His employees probably are diving enthusiasts rather than business people. The best way to get a discount is to ask for one, and if you're talking to the person running the business, have research to back your claim that others sell the item for less, and nicely ask for a discount with the idea that you will buy NOW if a deal is made, then everyone is happy. Plus, you've just initiated a relationship with someone who can help you in other ways.

 

[TSandM]

I have a very hard time, ethically, with using a shop to try on an item, and then buying it on line. There are significant costs associated with maintaining a store and an inventory. The flip side, for the consumer, of the very low prices on line, is giving up the convenience of being able to handle the goods and determine fit. If you use the bricks and mortar store to do that, and then buy on line, I think you have in a way stolen from the LDS.

I don't like t haggle, either, and I've had our local shops be snooty about it. But I offer them the opportunity to match an on line price, and see what they can do for me. They'll often come within ten or fifteen percent, and that's good enough for me. But if I try something on in the store and decide to buy it, I buy it there and swallow the price.

 

[scjoe]

IBut if I try something on in the store and decide to buy it, I buy it there and swallow the price.

I tend to agree, but what if the LDS down the street has a better price? There are 5 LDSs within easy driving of my house and I like the owners of all of them. There are also 2 chains. In terms of a lost sale,there is really no difference to the first LDS if you buy from his competitor down the street or an internet site.

Shopping norms are interesting. I suspect that none of us worry too much about trying on a pair of shoes at Macy's and if we see the same shoes at Nordstroms at a better price just buying them there. By the same token, most of us don't expect to ask the Macy's shop to lower its price to match Nordstroms. The angst shown about price shopping our LDS may be that we know it is a mom and pop operation (some aren't), but there are mom and pop shoe stores too and I doubt many of us try and negotiate price with them.

Unless the shop has a published policy of matching advertised prices or has asked to be given a chance to do so, I don't think it is appropriate to ask them to do so.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The simple answer is just to become an instructor and affiliate with a shop that sells you stuff at keyman or cost. If I have to pay retail for any major gear I don't buy it. A shop that charges 20% over MSRP deserves to go out of business. Especially when most large gear has a 100-200% mark up over cost. One shop tried to sell a new diver a reg for MSRP that was 530. Another shop sold it to him for 350 and still made money on it. Especially when he put what he saved towards a BC, Computer, and new wetsuit. All at once with this shop because he appreciated not getting bent over and screwed royally.

 

[scjoe]

One shop tried to sell a new diver a reg for MSRP that was 530. Another shop sold it to him for 350 and still made money on it. .

Shops selling at or near MSRP are probably doing so to retain their authorized dealer status, not screw their customers. If you have access to equipment outside the authorized supply chain, that is another matter.

By the time you become an instructor, you have all your gear so that $2 grand you put towards becoming an instructor takes awhile to recoup in gear discounts.