I think that since .0000000001% of the ocean has divers access it, we really don't know the full scale of the problem. The lionfish are being somewhat "controlled" in those areas.
Lionfish Awareness and Elimination
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Fred R.
Contributor
Killing lionfish is probably the worst way to deal with the ecological mess the ocean currently finds itself.
I have been documenting the condition of the reef for over 15 years in my area of the Bahamas. Since the introduction of lionfish into Bahama waters six years ago, the reef is showing some signs of return to a healthier condition.
If anyone is in the Boston area, I have been invited to share my observations at the New England Aquarium.
The presentation is scheduled for 6:30 February 16th at the New England Aquarium. Interested parties can contact;
Rick Rosa president@neadc.org
for more information.
I hope to see and meet those of you who can attend.
I have been documenting the condition of the reef for over 15 years in my area of the Bahamas. Since the introduction of lionfish into Bahama waters six years ago, the reef is showing some signs of return to a healthier condition.
If anyone is in the Boston area, I have been invited to share my observations at the New England Aquarium.
The presentation is scheduled for 6:30 February 16th at the New England Aquarium. Interested parties can contact;
Rick Rosa president@neadc.org
for more information.
I hope to see and meet those of you who can attend.
Guba
Contributor
Hi, Fred
I live a LOOOOOONG ways from New England, but I sure wish I could attend. I'd really like hearing your take on the situation.
However, I have a question: You cite an improvement in the health of the reef over the last six years (since LF were reported in the Bahamas). That timeline roughly coincides with the creation of 10 new MPA's in the Bahamas (created in 2002) along with what I was told were increased efforts to manage and protect Bahamian reef ecosystems. In your opinion, could the improved health of the reef systems there be linked to those increased efforts, or are we to infer you feel the introduction of the LF to be a causal factor?
Thank you for your efforts.
Bill
I live a LOOOOOONG ways from New England, but I sure wish I could attend. I'd really like hearing your take on the situation.
However, I have a question: You cite an improvement in the health of the reef over the last six years (since LF were reported in the Bahamas). That timeline roughly coincides with the creation of 10 new MPA's in the Bahamas (created in 2002) along with what I was told were increased efforts to manage and protect Bahamian reef ecosystems. In your opinion, could the improved health of the reef systems there be linked to those increased efforts, or are we to infer you feel the introduction of the LF to be a causal factor?
Thank you for your efforts.
Bill
Hank49
Contributor
Fred R.
Contributor
My presentation is a quick introduction to as many of the variable as I can account for. It takes about an hour. I am not going to present it here, sorry.
The marine protected areas have no effect on my observations. In spite of years of work to create such, there is no marine protected area anywhere near where I dive. The Bahamas is a HUGE reef system.
BTW-the reef as I use the term, is made up of hard stony corals, not fish. While most people like fish on the reef, or taking fish from the reef, in general, fish are inconsequential to maintaining the health of the reef, but they can be very significant to its demise.
The biggest immediate threat to our reefs was overgrowth by toxic algae, primarily of the species Microdytion marinum. Secondarily was Lobophora followed by the non-toxic calcareous Halimeda group. No fish species eats or controls the first two types. They can be eaten by certain invertebrates in small amounts.
These invertebrates are eaten by all sorts of small fish. A lack of larger predators on the reef leads to an overpopulation of these small carnivores and omnivores and a shortage of invertebrate herbivores.
Lionfish are acting as surrogates for the medium sized predators no longer found on the reefs due to human activity.
The reefs are becoming clean of the toxic algae species as the invertebrate population is allowed to increase. This is allowing recruitment of new coral colonies. It is a very slow process, one which most divers will never notice especially if they are chasing lionfish around in the mistaken impression that they are doing 'good'.
The marine protected areas have no effect on my observations. In spite of years of work to create such, there is no marine protected area anywhere near where I dive. The Bahamas is a HUGE reef system.
BTW-the reef as I use the term, is made up of hard stony corals, not fish. While most people like fish on the reef, or taking fish from the reef, in general, fish are inconsequential to maintaining the health of the reef, but they can be very significant to its demise.
The biggest immediate threat to our reefs was overgrowth by toxic algae, primarily of the species Microdytion marinum. Secondarily was Lobophora followed by the non-toxic calcareous Halimeda group. No fish species eats or controls the first two types. They can be eaten by certain invertebrates in small amounts.
These invertebrates are eaten by all sorts of small fish. A lack of larger predators on the reef leads to an overpopulation of these small carnivores and omnivores and a shortage of invertebrate herbivores.
Lionfish are acting as surrogates for the medium sized predators no longer found on the reefs due to human activity.
The reefs are becoming clean of the toxic algae species as the invertebrate population is allowed to increase. This is allowing recruitment of new coral colonies. It is a very slow process, one which most divers will never notice especially if they are chasing lionfish around in the mistaken impression that they are doing 'good'.
Guba
Contributor
Thanks, Fred
A fascinating look from a very different perspective. That's the first I've heard of LF as a replacement for dwindling predator species. Of course, I'm sure some voices will add that the opportunity for those species to return to their former numbers is much diminished because of the LF proliferation.
Okay, another question: (Sorry, but I have a rather voracious curiosity....science teacher...can't help it!) Do any of the mentioned small invertebrates show up in the lionfish stomach censuses? Other sources record that LF stomach content counts contain a number of invertebrate species, particularly among juvenile LF. I guess I'm questioning whether the invertebrate population will continue to grow should reef fish numbers shrink and LF start to look around for other prey.
Thanks for letting us pick your brain a bit. I appreciate your perspective and your efforts in documenting the conditions of the reef systems there. Good fortune!
A fascinating look from a very different perspective. That's the first I've heard of LF as a replacement for dwindling predator species. Of course, I'm sure some voices will add that the opportunity for those species to return to their former numbers is much diminished because of the LF proliferation.
Okay, another question: (Sorry, but I have a rather voracious curiosity....science teacher...can't help it!) Do any of the mentioned small invertebrates show up in the lionfish stomach censuses? Other sources record that LF stomach content counts contain a number of invertebrate species, particularly among juvenile LF. I guess I'm questioning whether the invertebrate population will continue to grow should reef fish numbers shrink and LF start to look around for other prey.
Thanks for letting us pick your brain a bit. I appreciate your perspective and your efforts in documenting the conditions of the reef systems there. Good fortune!
DragonflyDrew
Registered
I find this sad! This post started as one individual sharing their excitement over being able to release (from what I understand) never previously nor formally released training and it turns into first a discussion on how it must be a cash grab by either instructors, dive shops, or PADI who has approved the training and couldn't, god forbid, actually be about training and education and yes, last time I checked trainers and educated had a right to be paid for their time.
Then this turned into a discussion on whether or not Lion Fish are an issue and if we can believe the organizations that tell us they are until we see it ourselves. If this was the line of thinking we always embraced we would have to all smoke till it caused cancer to believe it really did cause it instead of taking the medical worlds studies as valid. If we discredit all of science because the scientists involved may have had a personal agenda then we need to throw out all science and for those who believe or have commented that this eradication is impossible because it hasn't worked yet... or noted that researchers can't be trusted because their ideas or conjectures on while fish life on the reef is depleting has not been proved or has changed direction over the years.... I'm glad you don't work in research or science or on the cure for diseases as the first time you hit a wall you would quit, say it's impossible and walk away.
It has been shown time and again that humans can have a very big impact on the world around them, plant life, animal life, human life, etc. If there are focused groups to accomplish the reduction in Lion Fish population then it can happen and as stated so accurately numerous times in this forum, man is to blame for this issue and it would be good if we did all we could to try to mend the issue.
All the best to those trying to make a difference out there! Remember, those who have done some of the greatest things in the world have done so despite the negative attitudes of others. Keep up the good work.
Then this turned into a discussion on whether or not Lion Fish are an issue and if we can believe the organizations that tell us they are until we see it ourselves. If this was the line of thinking we always embraced we would have to all smoke till it caused cancer to believe it really did cause it instead of taking the medical worlds studies as valid. If we discredit all of science because the scientists involved may have had a personal agenda then we need to throw out all science and for those who believe or have commented that this eradication is impossible because it hasn't worked yet... or noted that researchers can't be trusted because their ideas or conjectures on while fish life on the reef is depleting has not been proved or has changed direction over the years.... I'm glad you don't work in research or science or on the cure for diseases as the first time you hit a wall you would quit, say it's impossible and walk away.
It has been shown time and again that humans can have a very big impact on the world around them, plant life, animal life, human life, etc. If there are focused groups to accomplish the reduction in Lion Fish population then it can happen and as stated so accurately numerous times in this forum, man is to blame for this issue and it would be good if we did all we could to try to mend the issue.
All the best to those trying to make a difference out there! Remember, those who have done some of the greatest things in the world have done so despite the negative attitudes of others. Keep up the good work.
Guba
Contributor
Drew, that's not the take I'm getting from this thread at all (though that's just my opinion, of course). I'm finding the information fascinating, on both sides of the arguement. You see, I'm teaching "invasive species" in my Environmental Systems class next week, and I'm planning to use the LF as an example. To be able to gather information from both sides (Thanks, Fred, for providing a perspective I hadn't heard before) greatly augments the quality of the discussion for me and my students.
I also deeply appreciate the OP for introducing me to a program I had not directly heard of before. This thread has opened several doors for discussion and exchange of thought and to me that's what it's all about. It's why I take the time to log on to SB. If someone appears just downright negative (in attitude, not data content...opposing views are, of course, not inherently bad. They are good.) then I simply ignore the negativity and move on to the next post. I urge all of us to do the same and let's skip the verbal combativness.
I also deeply appreciate the OP for introducing me to a program I had not directly heard of before. This thread has opened several doors for discussion and exchange of thought and to me that's what it's all about. It's why I take the time to log on to SB. If someone appears just downright negative (in attitude, not data content...opposing views are, of course, not inherently bad. They are good.) then I simply ignore the negativity and move on to the next post. I urge all of us to do the same and let's skip the verbal combativness.
Fred R.
Contributor
Much of our understanding of coral reef ecology is incomplete or inaccurate. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. What people 'know' about how coral ecology works right now is equivalent to astronomy in the 1400's. There is more to learn, and the learning will force us to change our views, something called a paradigm shift.
But back to lionfish; juvenile lionfish are reported to consume about 80% of their diet in crustaceans, 20% fish. Adults reverse these numbers. One of the key groups in maintaining reef health is the multitude of urchin species. Lionfish are not reported to eat these at all.
Juvenile lionfish do not inhabit reef structure, they drift in the open ocean for the first 10 months of their life. I strongly suspect they are drifting in the Sargasso weed as this would explain their juvenile coloring, provide an ample supply of shrimp and explain their ability to colonize new reef 'upstream' of the drift. (Wind will move the weed mats more strongly than the currents)
Lionfish fit the ecological description of 'medium sized general predators'. Animals of this group tend to eat whatever is abundant and are reported to be key to stabilizing ecosystems. BTW-fish rely upon something like a .00001% survival rate from egg to successfully reproducing female (and this estimate might be high by several orders of magnitude). It is doubtful if the lionfish could prevent the recovery of any of the native predators in its class, these small fish have to run the same gauntlet in order to reach reproductive age and a safer, larger size, whether the predator is lionfish or their own species. This is also why very few fish grow up at the reef, they start in the open ocean, move to protected areas, like mangroves, and move to the reef when they approach their adult size.
Part of my message is to quit making the lionfish a kill-on-sight villain, and use the energy and effort to do something that would be truly helpful, like protect key species, set aside and protect nursery grounds, and create more no-take zones. Our money and efforts will do much more to promote healthy coral reefs if used in this fashion.
But back to lionfish; juvenile lionfish are reported to consume about 80% of their diet in crustaceans, 20% fish. Adults reverse these numbers. One of the key groups in maintaining reef health is the multitude of urchin species. Lionfish are not reported to eat these at all.
Juvenile lionfish do not inhabit reef structure, they drift in the open ocean for the first 10 months of their life. I strongly suspect they are drifting in the Sargasso weed as this would explain their juvenile coloring, provide an ample supply of shrimp and explain their ability to colonize new reef 'upstream' of the drift. (Wind will move the weed mats more strongly than the currents)
Lionfish fit the ecological description of 'medium sized general predators'. Animals of this group tend to eat whatever is abundant and are reported to be key to stabilizing ecosystems. BTW-fish rely upon something like a .00001% survival rate from egg to successfully reproducing female (and this estimate might be high by several orders of magnitude). It is doubtful if the lionfish could prevent the recovery of any of the native predators in its class, these small fish have to run the same gauntlet in order to reach reproductive age and a safer, larger size, whether the predator is lionfish or their own species. This is also why very few fish grow up at the reef, they start in the open ocean, move to protected areas, like mangroves, and move to the reef when they approach their adult size.
Part of my message is to quit making the lionfish a kill-on-sight villain, and use the energy and effort to do something that would be truly helpful, like protect key species, set aside and protect nursery grounds, and create more no-take zones. Our money and efforts will do much more to promote healthy coral reefs if used in this fashion.
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