Lionfish Awareness and Elimination

[Guba]

A tidbit...I saw it on CNN this morning, so it MUST be true, right?

The show host and two guests (one a chef, the other supposedly some sort of 'expert') were explaining and demonstrating how eating two invasive species...the Asian carp and the lionfish...could provide "huge benefits to the environment". While they fileted and cooked up a sample of each, they discussed the problem and their "solution"...eating the invaders into control. They also revealed some "facts" I didn't know. For example, the 'expert' said, and I quote, "They (lionfish) are now the second most prevalent fish in the Caribbean..." but noted that to keep up with domestic demand something other than spearfishing would have to be used, such as "traps and other methods".

I don't think I knew either of those facts before. Hmmmm Learn something every day, right?


And Fred, on the "baseline" facet...While I admit that recognized baselines improve with the chronological depth of the information, the type of baseline you require as relevant is virtually impossible to construct. From fossil evidence we can build a shell of information about a species' presence and even estimated numbers, but a bonified census based upon that kind of collection? Not truly possible. All we can do is build the best database we can based on observations collected over the longest period possible. As for the notion that "everyone is looking at fish and no one is looking at things like coral", that's why I mentioned the FGBNMS. Their census material has used transect and photographic point monitoring for nearly as long as the FGBNMS has been around (possibly longer, in some locations), so as far as current baselines go, it's a pretty good reference. This data includes surveys of fish and other vertebrate species, of course, but it also documents invertebrates including corals and algae. That's about as good as can be hoped for, and all elements of that information will certainly be scrutinized once lionfish arrive there.

And guys (especially Dan and Fred)...it's great to see a discussion like this presented in civil, fact-based terms, especially when opinions differ. So many times we see this type of discussion degrade into shouting matches that produce nothing of value. It's really good to see and have a chance to participate in discussions that are meant to be constructive. Thanks for your input.

 

[stcroix]

From what I've been able to glean from a number of folks who routinely shoot lionfish, they don't use traditional spearguns at all. Most use sling spears or even (mostly home-made) versions of the "lionkiller"--very short slingspears with almost blunt tips. They're compact, extremely safe, effective, and virtually idiot-proof. There's almost no possible way to accidentally shoot another diver. Of course, they're very short range, and they're nowhere near as "sexy" or impressive to other divers on the boat (don't laugh...I know some guys who work very hard at impressing young lasses on the boat with their "equipment" lol.)

The consensus choice of weapon among the three organized LF hunting groups here in the USVI (STT, STX, STJ), is that slings and small spearguns are the way to go.

One problem with the two handed spearing devices is that you often need one hand FREE to balance off the reef, or hold your position while reaching into reef structure. In areas where you have sandy bottom or rocks, instead of fans and soft corals, perhaps the need to balance is not as important.

More importantly, the experience of organized LF divers and divemasters here overwhelming indicates the importance of using trident (three pronged) tips. Some of the spears being sold as LF hunting spears are single tip devices, making it extremely hard to hit juvenile LF, and too easy to miss twitchy LF. And a "missed" LF is a wiser LF.

 

[AnotherNewguy]

I think one of the most important things to remember in the discussion is that, in the big picture, I think everyone would be able to accept if Lionfish never were completely eradicated from Caribbean waters. Sure, it'd be better if they had never been introduced but to try to completely eliminate entire species because you deem them invasive would be an insane waste of time. All that can be hoped for is a balance so native species can prosper just as well as the invasive ones.

And Fred, on the question of invasive species moving here naturally, you're facing a different scenario because the critters in question move gradually and, most likely, not alone. As the plankton move, most likely so do the fish which eat the plankton. As the plankton eating fish migrate, so do the fish that eat them. Etc, Etc, Etc. The whale also isn't a threat because it's not suddenly going to boom a population that'll throw an ecosystem out of balance. The issue comes in when something like the Lionfish is introduced without the usual relationships already established. It begins looking for prey but nothing naturally knows to look for it for prey.

 

[Fred R.]

Hi All,

As Bill (Guba) says-I love this discussion and it is going in so many interesting directions!

To get back to lionfish for a moment, please take a moment to read this story; Tiny Damselfish May Destroy A Caribbean Reef : NPR

It is one of at least a dozen like it I have read in recent times, I chose this one because it took place in Bonaire and that is where we started this thread. Notice the date of publication, it means that the research was done in the year or three previously, which predates, I think, the lionfish arriving in Bonaire. I am sure if this researcher started his research in 2011, he would have found something completely different, which speaks to my point that lionfish are going to act as surrogate predators for over exploited resources, namely the numerous grouper species.

Dan, understand I take your observations of your early days of diving VERY seriously and add your observations to my own personal database. For myself, my diving started in 1980, but didn’t become obsessive until 1992. From 1992 on, I’ve averaged about two dives a day, seven days a week, fifty weeks a year, all in the same area. To say I know my reefs should be an understatement, I’ve been planting, grooming, treating and observing the same coral for almost twenty years. One of my dive sites, about a hundred foot circle, I’ve dived over two thousand times! Pretty much, I have a personal relationship with the creatures, both mobile and sessile that live in my area.

But…and it is a big but, I don’t know what it is like elsewhere, so I rely upon other divers to fill in the big picture, and thanks to you Dan, I’ve a bigger idea now.
From the beginning of this (and other) thread, as well as in the presentation I’ve done, I’ve called for general conservation. Killing lionfish as policy, to me, is not only a waste of time, it sends a bad message, it further degrades the reef and it wastes scarce conservation resources that need, really need to be invested in our future. (It is good for starting a heated discussion though)

As a for instance, here in the Bahamas, the government just instituted a ban on ALL commercial shark fishing and a proclamation that all sport shark fishing shall be catch and release. Now, I’ve worked toward that goal for 18 years, bringing the subject up at meeting after meeting of the Bahamas National Trust, which is the organization concerned. The result of which was a motion to ban me from the meetings (politely phrased, not using my name, but submitted by the chairman). No one seconded the motion, but I got the hint and backed off a bit. Recently, the PEW foundation showed up with a man who has a famous last name and started a petition drive. Within the year, we have shark conservation. I am happy to say; the previous year we got all turtles protected. I am working to change fisheries law to protect the largest fish of any given species. Protecting the small ones is counter-productive, and yes, I know, it is the way we’ve always done it and it obviously is not working.

Now I am working for reef conservation. Oddly, I have an ally in the lionfish, so I find myself defending them.

 

[b-dog]

One thing I would like to say about the damselfish is they are very aggressive and if their numbers on the reef increase they will bully they juvenile fishes that people want to protect. Without predators damselfish will overtake the reef just like the cichlid fish have taken over the canals in Florida.

 

[b-dog]

One thing I do have to ask since this is sort of about evolution is why the fish in the Pacific are so much more colorful and have much more intricate patterns than the fish in the Caribbean. I have read that the Atlantic Ocean froze much more than the Pacific in the Ice Age and that was one idea why there were much less fish species in the Atlantic than the Indo-Pacific. I think there are about 500 species in the Caribbean while the Indo-Pacific is about 10 times more. The Caribbean is only about 8% of the total reef area and it is isolated from the the Indo-Pacific region which is pretty well interconnected. I am really curious about this so if anyone knows I would be very interested.

 

[danvolker]

Hi All,

As Bill (Guba) says-I love this discussion and it is going in so many interesting directions!

To get back to lionfish for a moment, please take a moment to read this story; Tiny Damselfish May Destroy A Caribbean Reef : NPR

It is one of at least a dozen like it I have read in recent times, I chose this one because it took place in Bonaire and that is where we started this thread. Notice the date of publication, it means that the research was done in the year or three previously, which predates, I think, the lionfish arriving in Bonaire. I am sure if this researcher started his research in 2011, he would have found something completely different, which speaks to my point that lionfish are going to act as surrogate predators for over exploited resources, namely the numerous grouper species.

Dan, understand I take your observations of your early days of diving VERY seriously and add your observations to my own personal database. For myself, my diving started in 1980, but didn’t become obsessive until 1992. From 1992 on, I’ve averaged about two dives a day, seven days a week, fifty weeks a year, all in the same area. To say I know my reefs should be an understatement, I’ve been planting, grooming, treating and observing the same coral for almost twenty years. One of my dive sites, about a hundred foot circle, I’ve dived over two thousand times! Pretty much, I have a personal relationship with the creatures, both mobile and sessile that live in my area.

But…and it is a big but, I don’t know what it is like elsewhere, so I rely upon other divers to fill in the big picture, and thanks to you Dan, I’ve a bigger idea now.
From the beginning of this (and other) thread, as well as in the presentation I’ve done, I’ve called for general conservation. Killing lionfish as policy, to me, is not only a waste of time, it sends a bad message, it further degrades the reef and it wastes scarce conservation resources that need, really need to be invested in our future. (It is good for starting a heated discussion though)

As a for instance, here in the Bahamas, the government just instituted a ban on ALL commercial shark fishing and a proclamation that all sport shark fishing shall be catch and release. Now, I’ve worked toward that goal for 18 years, bringing the subject up at meeting after meeting of the Bahamas National Trust, which is the organization concerned. The result of which was a motion to ban me from the meetings (politely phrased, not using my name, but submitted by the chairman). No one seconded the motion, but I got the hint and backed off a bit. Recently, the PEW foundation showed up with a man who has a famous last name and started a petition drive. Within the year, we have shark conservation. I am happy to say; the previous year we got all turtles protected. I am working to change fisheries law to protect the largest fish of any given species. Protecting the small ones is counter-productive, and yes, I know, it is the way we’ve always done it and it obviously is not working.

Now I am working for reef conservation. Oddly, I have an ally in the lionfish, so I find myself defending them.

Fred,
Thanks for the kind words, and of course I enjoy learning from your perspective as well.
In the last two weeks, I have spent quite a bit of time with my friend Jim Abernethy, and some of the Scientists he worked with on the making of his new film, just playing here at Harbor Branch in Fort Pierce, yesterday..the film "This is Your Ocean: Sharks".

The concepts these scientists are pushing is for getting nature able to take care of itself again, by getting MAN to stop the current destruction of the trophic relationships, by forcing an end to shark fishing ( for shark fin soup primarily). One interesting factoid that has come out of their studies....where the Chinese are not inclined to listen to Americans regarding the wrongful slaughter of sharks--as they feel it is a cultural issue, brand new research is showing that shark fins have a dangerous level of a neurotoxin chemical in them, causing Alzheimer's disease and even worse. As these dangerous toxins in the shark fins become News in CHina, our expectation is that, as with the high mercury flesh of the shark, the fins will no longer be desirable either.
The science I have seen, shows the shark,at a 90% reduction in shark population world wide. At healthy population numbers, the shark populations would put the lionfish in check, as the sharks are very happy to eat lionfish.

A ban on all shark hunting could be spectacular for the lionfish problem, and would have no significant economic impact like moratoriums on snapper and grouper populations would. Certainly the people who do make their living killing sharks for fins, deserve to lose financially....show me a shark finner, and I will be thrilled to say this to their face There is an operation in Jupiter right now ( just north of palm Beach, fl) that is shark fishing 24 hours a day, and are allowed to bring in something like 20 sharks at a time, and can make as many trips per 24 hours as they want....Last week we heard in one day, they slaughtered 10 great hammerheads, and 2 tiger sharks...in one day....they finned them, then took the bodies out to the 90 foot ledge and dumped them!!! Fins can sell for perhaps $200 each...the meat does not sell well, because most consumers know of the mercury contamination.
I suggest everyone check this out http://www.thisisyourocean.com/thefilm.html
Even if we can't get the groupers back to control the lionfish, we can get sharks back into the game

 

[Marckel2]

We all know that lionfish are a huge problem in Caribbean and Atlantic waters, and here on Bonaire we are asking our divers to help save the local reefs by getting in on the action. We are trying to teach them about the problems and hazards associated with lionfish and their invasion into these waters, and we are asking them to help sight and report where lionfish are so they can be collected or culled.

 

[thiskatloveswater]

Hello,

I spent a semester in the Caribbean doing research on lionfish using only the net and euthanize capture technique. In my opinion, it was not extremely difficult to catch them using only nets, they aren't exactly the smartest fish on the planet. We usually had a 75% catch rate. After netting them, it was pretty simple to grab them (i just used a pair of 5mm gloves I had on hand from diving in cold water) and kill them in the net. There was only a small danger of puncture, and even at that, its good experience to have a minor sting, its much like a jellyfish sting. Nothing a new student that wants the specialty can't handle.

Hope this helps!

 

[danvolker]

The two real solutions, are an end to shark fishing, so that the natural sherrifs of the reef will be there again to control "any" balooning fish population, and second, to get restaurants excited about offering Lionfish on their menus....if Lionfish could sell for entree prices like Hogfish, the Lionfish would be rare on most reefs within 2 years....Of this I have no doubt...and this is the ONE Thing that most of us could help with...!

As to the populations on 260 foot deep reef lines, I can say that where hogsnapper had disappeared on 60 foot reefs, there were "some" on the 270 foot stuff, but nothing like the hogsnapper populations pre-commerical spearing of them, on the shallow reefs. Hogsnapper occuply a different trophic level from the lionfish, so this may not be terribly relevant......but, the same can be said to Nasua Groupers, grey groupers, and jewfish....when they were wiped out on Palm Beach reefs in the 80's and 90's, we would see no Nassuas on deep reef or wrecks anywhere off Palm beach, very few Greys, and we would see a few jewfish....I do think the jewfish managed to repopulate in deep water, but they are much closer to being at the top of the food chain, and have more feeding choices than most fish...Even if they were similar to lionfish in their ability to occupy the deep areas, the jewfish never grew to heavily populate the deep--we would see a few, where in shallow there would be none--but in the 60's, there could be hundreds of jewfish on one single dive----this level of natural population never was regained in deep, there would never be more than a few on a dive....